996.2 GT3 Manthey K410 or alternative solution?

[siheb]

Hi All

I have been thinking about getting the Manthey K410 upgrade for my 6.2 GT3, but at £6,300+vat it is pretty expensive.

From a quick search on PH I understand that it may also be possible to obtain similar results but on a piecemeal basis. For example I know I can source the full sports exhaust - although there seems to be some debate over whether M&M or Cargraphic is best (?).DMS Automotive in Southampton seem to be the guys for the remap too. However does anyone know what the options are with regards to the sports air filter, it is possible to purchase this and have it fitted independently pre remap too?

Or is all this just a false economy and should I just bite the bullet and hand over the seven and a half large to JZM for the full Manthey job?
S

[Steve Rance]

If you are looking for track performance, your money will initially be better spent on a decent set of spring/dampers and some alcons/pagid yellows up front

[EGTE]

£7.5K for an exhaust and re-map sounds pretty damned steep, to me.

How much is an (Akrapovic) titanium system; they save way more than 7Kgs, don't they?

[siheb]

Not sure Akrapovic make a complete system for the 996, but for the 997 it is just over £10k!!!

[PorscheGT4]

DMS Automotive in Southampton for Porsche = no imo.

do people fit the 997 GT3 plenum on the 996's ?

Do a sharwerks 3.9 on it ;-) proper job

OR cheaper the Cargraphic power kit for a few bolt on's

381PS and 385Nm
up to
411PS and 429Nm

Consists of:
- Complete Cargraphic R - Exhaust System
- Sport air filter
- ECU control unit programming only

Price Net Export: 6.795,00 €

[GT3-RS]

on my 96RS I have a Complete S/s M&M (Decat) exhaust system with RSR secondary silencers a K&N Air filter and a DMS Remap to pull it all together all in about £5500.....before remap dyno'd 408 BHP after dyno 429BHP (Subjective)I only did this as the original cats were kaputt and as far as I was concerned if it made 400 BHP I was going to be happy.....oh and the noise did I mention that......EPIC......so well worth it for that alone and nothing that can't be put back to standard

[TB993tt]

PorscheGT4 said:

OR cheaper the Cargraphic power kit for a few bolt on's

381PS and 385Nm
up to
411PS and 429Nm

Consists of:
- Complete Cargraphic R - Exhaust System
- Sport air filter
- ECU control unit programming only

Price Net Export: 6.795,00 €

The kits listed above are RS Tuning kits developed on the engine dyno and extensively tested on the track, RS are at the cutting edge for the Mezger GT3 unit and can can also supply you with a 4.5 litre race proven 550PS lump.

RS Tuning engine stuff is the gold standard and if your car is LHD then I would go RS Tuning/Cargraphic as it will help your value in Europe but Manthey will give you better resale in the UK and is still excellent, ECU tuning done by Ansgar Weissen on Maha chassis dyno and tested at the ring.

Anyone ruining these iconic Mezgers by doing piecemeal amateur tuning for budgetary reasons should have their balls ripped off IMVHO

[LaSource]

Steve Rance said:

If you are looking for track performance, your money will initially be better spent on a decent set of spring/dampers and some alcons/pagid yellows up front

I tend to agree with the above...plus a rebuilt diff, pointier geo and some tuition. Bob's your uncle.
...ok, you could get switcable exhaust too but only if the OEMs are on their way out, else stick with them.

[mischaRS]

Dont bu**er around with the middlemen who make the profit
Take it directly to RS Tuning

[Moosh]

mischaRS said:

Dont bu**er around with the middlemen who make the profit
Take it directly to RS Tuning

As above

[Cheburator mk2]

TB993tt said:

The kits listed above are RS Tuning kits developed on the engine dyno and extensively tested on the track, RS are at the cutting edge for the Mezger GT3 unit and can can also supply you with a 4.5 litre race proven 550PS lump.

RS Tuning engine stuff is the gold standard and if your car is LHD then I would go RS Tuning/Cargraphic as it will help your value in Europe but Manthey will give you better resale in the UK and is still excellent, ECU tuning done by Ansgar Weissen on Maha chassis dyno and tested at the ring.

Anyone ruining these iconic Mezgers by doing piecemeal amateur tuning for budgetary reasons should have their balls ripped off IMVHO

It is highly likely that the Motronic programming for RS Tuning was also done by Ansgar Wiesen (VGS Tuning Koln), who also does the work for Manthey. From what I have heard, he is still considered to be the ONE in Germany...

[TB993tt]

Cheburator mk2 said:

It is highly likely that the Motronic programming for RS Tuning was also done by Ansgar Wiesen (VGS Tuning Koln), who also does the work for Manthey. From what I have heard, he is still considered to be the ONE in Germany...

I don't disagree than Ansgar is one of the best for Motronic and does an awesome job within the limitations of his Maha chassis dyno (which are not that big TBF - the limitations I mean) but RS does his own Motronic stuff, he has an expert on staff and they have Bosch engineers on call for problem areas.

[Richie200]

Cheburator mk2 said:

It is highly likely that the Motronic programming for RS Tuning was also done by Ansgar Wiesen (VGS Tuning Koln), who also does the work for Manthey. From what I have heard, he is still considered to be the ONE in Germany...

VGS/Ansgar did the map on my RS after the engine upgrade (increase in capacity) and it is wonderful to drive, all part throttle applications through to WOT are perfect as though is was a stock ECU map. So another thumbs-up from me for Ansgar work.

[Cheburator mk2]

Richie200 said:

VGS/Ansgar did the map on my RS after the engine upgrade (increase in capacity) and it is wonderful to drive, all part throttle applications through to WOT are perfect as though is was a stock ECU map. So another thumbs-up from me for Ansgar work.

I have Olaf's old car - a 996.1 GT3 - which happens to be the first ever K400 kit in the World. There is no way you would know that it is running Alpha-N, the Cup filter and the carbon airbox if I don't tell you. Same thing - part throttle, idle, WOT are all excellent. It actually passes emissions too!

Cannot praise VGS enough...

[Ranman]

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...

If your car is still completely standard then sell.......standard cars are more sought after.....then buy the above plus change in your pocket

[siheb]

Thanks for all the feedback.To address some of the points raised:

The car is standard however I'm not really interested in preserving this if I can enhance my enjoyment of ownership over the years. It is intended to be a keeper so I don't really have much of an eye on its potential value. Also the items I am talking about could be reversed if the need ever arose.

The front brakes are already sorted and I take the point re springs/dampers, but the need for an exhaust is because the current one is on the way out (it was Chris at CG who pointed this out when it was in for a geo set up). It could be taken off and repaired however I am of the mind frame that if that is the case then I may as well upgrade it completely to a SS model. Hence the man maths then kicked in and the thought to go one step further and have a full engine upgrade kit.

There is still plenty of room for improvement in the driver skills however!

So, the car is RHD and UK based so RS tuning isn't really a practical option at the moment. The JZM/Manthey solution is most likely the best option however, and please bear with me here because I am just trying to understand the specifics v cost:

M&M will sell me a full SS powerkit exhaust plus packaging and delivery to the UK for £3,0000 (this is exactly the same model as Manthey use in their kit). Fitting will be say £500.
A BMC sports air filter is £90
And a decent remap is under £1,000.

Yes I don't get the Manthey MAF delete/Alpha-N option but there seems to be some debate around the merits of this anyway. Therefore it seems to me that I get 95% plus of the package and the same level of performance/weight saving etc, for around £4.5k vs £7.5k for the Manthey kit.

I really am not trying to do this on the cheap and will happily spend the money on the correct solution, however I just can't see where the extra £3k goes in the full Manthey solution?

£3k that could then be used to sort the suspension even.....

Edited by siheb on Saturday 5th December 08:00

[TB993tt]

siheb said:

I really am not trying to do this on the cheap and will happily spend the money on the correct solution, however I just can't see where the extra £3k goes in the full Manthey solution?

The £3K is for the kit development (and obviously profit) and particularly the mapping, Manthey will have tested extensively on the road and ring and there may have been multiple Maha mapping sessions to get the signed off outcome, this is not the same as your ace mapper on his Bosch FLA for a few hours.

The differences may not be apparent, they may not be measurable unless you did back to back data logs but could manifest as timing retardation after extensive lapping (eg in hot ambient temps) your ace mapper may have too much advance dialled in and the ECU would retard back to safety below where the Manthey map is running, subtle stuff but will reduce engine performance somewhat.

[siheb]

Ranman said:

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...

If your car is still completely standard then sell.......standard cars are more sought after.....then buy the above plus change in your pocket

Am fairly certain I saw that car for sale for £44k at JZM three or so years ago. Can't see I will get more for mine - trade or private - and still have change left over... Nothing seemingly selling now at these prices, Spring time will be the true test.

[arcticGT]

I have the cargraphic R kit on mine, the kit was originally fitted very early in its life. The previous owner replaced the rear boxes the year before I bought the car and I replaced the headers and cats last year (headers were dented from grounding and the cats were starting to fail).

I considered switching to the K400 at the time but the cost seemed very high (not that the replacement Cargraphic stuff was cheap !) and I was a bit concerned about loosing the maf on what's mainly a road car for me.

I' wouldn't use DMS personally but there lots of good stuff written about Wayne Schofield on here, if I was in your shoes I'd be ordered int direct from M&M and tracking him down.

[Steve Rance]

Are you intending to track the car at all?