Any Triumph Spitfire experts?
Discussion
A mate dropped in earlier this week with his freshly-purchased Triumph Spitfire.
Cosmetically it's an absolute beauty - looks like it came out of the factory last week. He bought it from a classic car garage, and it has a one year guarantee and freshly MOT'd (or equivalent - we're in Belgium).
Now the car looks and runs great but handles terribly - he brought it to me because it scares the s
t out of him, and he's driven a few of my cars (Alfas from the same period) and they handle so much better.
The front end feels very unsettled - every bump on the road has the front end skipping about, and the back end breaks out (slides) in corners if the road is even slightly damp. We weren't driving at any silly speed, and my mate is a police-trained driver, who has regular training updates, and can certainly handle a car reasonably well. I last drove a Spitfire in about 1986, but certainly don't remember it being such a handful.
In a comparative drive with my Alfa Spider it just feels so much more planted (although in fairness my Spider has an Alfaholics fast road kit and polybushes).
It's on brand new rubber (cheap chinese tyres placed by the garage), and looking at the front suspension, on both sides, the springs are like bananas (see photos below). On one side the inside of the spring is touching the shock absorber!
While I can't believe that they are supposed to be like that, Google images of Spitfire suspensions DO show quite a few examples which are the same as my mate's car.
My mate is considering replacing the shocks, springs and tyres. Can anyone recommend good suppliers in the UK?
He's currently looking at this - http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-RL1514__GAZ - but maybe someone on here has an alternative or better recommendation?
Cosmetically it's an absolute beauty - looks like it came out of the factory last week. He bought it from a classic car garage, and it has a one year guarantee and freshly MOT'd (or equivalent - we're in Belgium).
Now the car looks and runs great but handles terribly - he brought it to me because it scares the s
t out of him, and he's driven a few of my cars (Alfas from the same period) and they handle so much better. The front end feels very unsettled - every bump on the road has the front end skipping about, and the back end breaks out (slides) in corners if the road is even slightly damp. We weren't driving at any silly speed, and my mate is a police-trained driver, who has regular training updates, and can certainly handle a car reasonably well. I last drove a Spitfire in about 1986, but certainly don't remember it being such a handful.
In a comparative drive with my Alfa Spider it just feels so much more planted (although in fairness my Spider has an Alfaholics fast road kit and polybushes).
It's on brand new rubber (cheap chinese tyres placed by the garage), and looking at the front suspension, on both sides, the springs are like bananas (see photos below). On one side the inside of the spring is touching the shock absorber!
While I can't believe that they are supposed to be like that, Google images of Spitfire suspensions DO show quite a few examples which are the same as my mate's car.
My mate is considering replacing the shocks, springs and tyres. Can anyone recommend good suppliers in the UK?
He's currently looking at this - http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-RL1514__GAZ - but maybe someone on here has an alternative or better recommendation?
Not if both wheels were splayed out or turned in. It might be the reason its on cheap tyres to hide the wear. Obv splayed out leads to wear on the inside of the tyre and the inward track leads to excessive wear on the outside.
I geo setup would be worth while and if you take it to someone who knows their stuff they will be able to advise what is going on with the suspension.
I geo setup would be worth while and if you take it to someone who knows their stuff they will be able to advise what is going on with the suspension.
I had a Herald many years ago (a Spitfire is a Herald in a pretty dress), and those front springs don't look right to me.
The front wishbones are attached with bolts through sleeves in nylon? bushes - these can wear, and are easy to replace : unless the bolt is rusted to the sleeve like mine were.
There is also a brass? trunnion at the base of the front upright : check that for play. If worn, replace it.
And check for play in the steering / rack.
The different suspension revisions were to tame the tendancy to terminal lift-off oversteer, but the front should feel securely planted (for a sixties Triumph).
I replaced the cast-iron boat anchor and gearbox with similar period Japanese gear, which helped move the weight distribution rearwards; it was fine if you committed to a corner, and kept the power on once you had applied it, but lifting off mid corner was a big no-no.
I believe each revision of the suspension improved things, but improvement is relative...
The front wishbones are attached with bolts through sleeves in nylon? bushes - these can wear, and are easy to replace : unless the bolt is rusted to the sleeve like mine were.
There is also a brass? trunnion at the base of the front upright : check that for play. If worn, replace it.
And check for play in the steering / rack.
The different suspension revisions were to tame the tendancy to terminal lift-off oversteer, but the front should feel securely planted (for a sixties Triumph).
I replaced the cast-iron boat anchor and gearbox with similar period Japanese gear, which helped move the weight distribution rearwards; it was fine if you committed to a corner, and kept the power on once you had applied it, but lifting off mid corner was a big no-no.
I believe each revision of the suspension improved things, but improvement is relative...
sunbeam alpine said:
V6Pushfit said:
Look at the tracking, camber and ride height first.
Sorry if it's a stupid question, but wouldn't the car pull to the left or right if the tracking wasn't good?I would add that back in the day I hit a tyre on a low bollard outside a pub (yes) and wrecked the spit steering - it turned out I fractured the rack casing.
I drove over 10 miles with the front wheels at an angle of over 10 degrees out. The steering didnt do much but was ok in a straight line however corners were a nightmare - nothing would happen initially when the steering was turned and then suddenly the car would turn and needed an immediate huge opposite turn to get back straight again.
Not one of my finest moments but then that's what beer does - or did.
I drove over 10 miles with the front wheels at an angle of over 10 degrees out. The steering didnt do much but was ok in a straight line however corners were a nightmare - nothing would happen initially when the steering was turned and then suddenly the car would turn and needed an immediate huge opposite turn to get back straight again.
Not one of my finest moments but then that's what beer does - or did.
I can't see anything obviously wrong in those pics, but you'd need a close inspection to spot anything really.
I would have thought even cheap modern Chinese tyres will be better than what the Spit was fitted with new. It might be worth checking whether they're at the correct pressures:
http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/content--name-Triumph-...
has the right info. You'll notice by the standards of heavy modern cars, pressures are pretty low, so if the fitter has whacked 35psi in them then the car might well feel a bit skittish.
Shockers and bushes would have to be pretty knackered (ie MoT failure) to feel that terrible on such an old car, in my experience. If you're used to modern cars, the Spit will feel quite primitive. Don't forget, 60mph was reasonably fast when the car was built, and most family saloons topped out at 80-90mph. Even my 1984 Mini is challenging at any real speed by modern standards, and it has new suspension and decent tyres...
I would have thought even cheap modern Chinese tyres will be better than what the Spit was fitted with new. It might be worth checking whether they're at the correct pressures:
http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/content--name-Triumph-...
has the right info. You'll notice by the standards of heavy modern cars, pressures are pretty low, so if the fitter has whacked 35psi in them then the car might well feel a bit skittish.
Shockers and bushes would have to be pretty knackered (ie MoT failure) to feel that terrible on such an old car, in my experience. If you're used to modern cars, the Spit will feel quite primitive. Don't forget, 60mph was reasonably fast when the car was built, and most family saloons topped out at 80-90mph. Even my 1984 Mini is challenging at any real speed by modern standards, and it has new suspension and decent tyres...
Sounds like the suspension needs a proper going over replacing any bad springs, bushings, shock absorbers and linkages.
I agree with the suggestions that the geometry should be checked but obviously that should be done after you've satisfied yourself that all of the components are ok.
I wouldn't want cheap budgets on my car but as someone else has already said, they can't really cause 'bad handling' and will be better than the original tyres. Again, check the pressures before the car goes on the road again.
I agree with the suggestions that the geometry should be checked but obviously that should be done after you've satisfied yourself that all of the components are ok.
I wouldn't want cheap budgets on my car but as someone else has already said, they can't really cause 'bad handling' and will be better than the original tyres. Again, check the pressures before the car goes on the road again.
Hard to be 100% sure from a photo but I'd say those were uprated springs, probably not with suitable matched shocks. If you were over-spring but under-damped I'd imagin the handling would be a little interesting, and if the spring's being compressed a lot to match the damper it would tend to banana a bit, basically trying to make a bid for freedom.
If you want to refresh things then check out the TSSC club shop - https://shop.tssc.org.uk/category/front-suspension
Standard springs £43.20/pair or 20% stiffer/standard length £48
Standard shocks £117.60/pair or adjustables £189.60
Unless money's tight I'd also recommend refreshing all the bushes with poly while you're at it £130.14
If you want to refresh things then check out the TSSC club shop - https://shop.tssc.org.uk/category/front-suspension
Standard springs £43.20/pair or 20% stiffer/standard length £48
Standard shocks £117.60/pair or adjustables £189.60
Unless money's tight I'd also recommend refreshing all the bushes with poly while you're at it £130.14
I have a Herald and found it drove pretty nicely. It might be worth jacking the car up removing the wheels and slackening off the major suspension nuts and bolts. Perhaps they were all tightened up with no load on the suspension and this is causing binding and hence erratic handling? I am sure the service manual says to finally tighten/torque the suspension components with weight of the car on them.
I also agree with checking geometry and tyre pressure.
Are the trunnions worn? Easy to check. What lubrication are they filled with (if any!), should be EP90 gear oil, not grease. Also, check the lower front wishbones where the trunnion attachment bolt goes through, as the bolt hole can become worn and oval/misshapen. There are usually some shims between the chassis to wishbone mounting points to help set up the geometry, are any fitted at all either side? Wheel bearings OK? Rear UJ's worn? Just some thoughts off the top of my head.
Good luck. Let us know what you find.
I also agree with checking geometry and tyre pressure.
Are the trunnions worn? Easy to check. What lubrication are they filled with (if any!), should be EP90 gear oil, not grease. Also, check the lower front wishbones where the trunnion attachment bolt goes through, as the bolt hole can become worn and oval/misshapen. There are usually some shims between the chassis to wishbone mounting points to help set up the geometry, are any fitted at all either side? Wheel bearings OK? Rear UJ's worn? Just some thoughts off the top of my head.
Good luck. Let us know what you find.
Sounds like the geometry is way out. This might just be the way it's been assembled or it may also be that the chassis and body aren't true which could be the case if it has been 'restored' badly. Note that on a Spitfire, unlike a Herald or Vitesse, the sills are structural. Get the car up on a four-post lift, on its wheels, and measure it both diagonally and front to back. Anything more than a few mm could be a cause for concern. Compare to the specifications given in the factory manual.
Those front springs look wrong though.
Those front springs look wrong though.
Another suggestion - Check that the rear is tracked correctly. A bent tie bar fastening the upright to the back of the tub, or a straight tie bar but a repaired tub (and now with the mounting panel being in the wrong place ) can cause the wheel track to be out. Spacers at the front end of the tie bar are used to set this up. The front end should be nicely planted though.
I had one for 7 years or so. The front went where I wanted it to go (I ran stiffer shorter springs and adjustable dampers). It was the back that "communicated" with me. However they handle in a nicer way than many would have you believe.
I had one for 7 years or so. The front went where I wanted it to go (I ran stiffer shorter springs and adjustable dampers). It was the back that "communicated" with me. However they handle in a nicer way than many would have you believe.
The Mk IV Spitfire handled pretty well as it had longer drive-shafts I believe
Check the front trunnions, these should be lubricated with diff oil, but a lot of people used grease which caused corrosion between the steel vertical link and the bronze trunnion.
Rear tracking is quite easy to set up using shims on the tie-rods
Check the front trunnions, these should be lubricated with diff oil, but a lot of people used grease which caused corrosion between the steel vertical link and the bronze trunnion.
Rear tracking is quite easy to set up using shims on the tie-rods
When I rebuilt my Spitfire (1974 1500) some years back now, the Front shock absorbers, supplied by a well known specialist no less, had the spring cups welded on too far up - this resulted in the car sitting high at the front, the shocker at full stretch and the coils compressed like a banana . . . . . . . . .
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