Cost of installation of comercial / rapid charge units
Discussion
We have been quoted an eye watering amount of money to install two commercial rapid charging units at work to support a fleet of 6 - 8 EVs. I don't know the detailed spec or name of the units as I haven't seen the written quote yet, but as I understand it they should do 1 rapid charge (30 min to 80%) & 1 "domestic" slow charge (4 hrs to 80%) off each "box".
Does anyone have a feel for how much these should cost on the open market?
Does anyone have a feel for how much these should cost on the open market?
Those 3 phase units are very expensive
Might be worth looking at http://insideevs.com/siemens-unveils-single-phase-...
They are single phase and are about half the power of the big rapid charge units - but I'd expect them to be much cheaper.
Might be worth looking at http://insideevs.com/siemens-unveils-single-phase-...
They are single phase and are about half the power of the big rapid charge units - but I'd expect them to be much cheaper.
Looking at pricing I think the installers are charging you a realistic supply/installation cost then pocketing the subsidy.
No way the plastic box and a bit of 6mm runs anyone 800 quid, or is there some seriously clever electronics in there?
Seems you can buy the box for around 300 quid retail from here https://www.yesss.co.uk/heating-ventilation-c5/ev-...
No way the plastic box and a bit of 6mm runs anyone 800 quid, or is there some seriously clever electronics in there?
Seems you can buy the box for around 300 quid retail from here https://www.yesss.co.uk/heating-ventilation-c5/ev-...
Several different ways to charge.
Biggest without going silly I believe is 22kW- done a couple of 3 phase circuits for 22kW chargers which were in the £500-£1000 range, inclusive of all but the charger itself, where 3 phase was already available.
For the lower power solutions the govm. subsidies are available for the big cartels to nail a bit of cable and receive 10x the worth of magic tax money which makes the likes of me uncompetitive on cost grounds.
Biggest without going silly I believe is 22kW- done a couple of 3 phase circuits for 22kW chargers which were in the £500-£1000 range, inclusive of all but the charger itself, where 3 phase was already available.
For the lower power solutions the govm. subsidies are available for the big cartels to nail a bit of cable and receive 10x the worth of magic tax money which makes the likes of me uncompetitive on cost grounds.
How long will the cars be at the workplace/charging station? We fit under the OLEV scheme but that only applies to domestic installs in terms of any grants etc (some funding availble on a postcode lottery of local councils)
But I normally recommend getting most for your money in terms of outlets so as mentioned if you have 3 phase there are some robust 'dumb' units that have dual charger outlets.
If you're starting from scratch then the real cost can be groundworks or in long cable runs. I've been to a couple of customers who wanted to put the EV chargers at the far side of the car park 'out of the way' but it's hugely more cost effective to keep the Chargers near the main building or even better wall mounted.
Feel free to PM if you want but happy to share any info. Also what cars have you got? Most plug-in hybrids only charge at 16amp and how many times will 2 cars be charging at the same time? All those details can save hundreds if not thousands.
3 dual chargers on a wall serving 6 car parking spaces could be done for £3-5k depending on cable run and how fancy you want your chargers. Rapid chargers kick off at £30k for kit and basic installs...
But I normally recommend getting most for your money in terms of outlets so as mentioned if you have 3 phase there are some robust 'dumb' units that have dual charger outlets.
If you're starting from scratch then the real cost can be groundworks or in long cable runs. I've been to a couple of customers who wanted to put the EV chargers at the far side of the car park 'out of the way' but it's hugely more cost effective to keep the Chargers near the main building or even better wall mounted.
Feel free to PM if you want but happy to share any info. Also what cars have you got? Most plug-in hybrids only charge at 16amp and how many times will 2 cars be charging at the same time? All those details can save hundreds if not thousands.
3 dual chargers on a wall serving 6 car parking spaces could be done for £3-5k depending on cable run and how fancy you want your chargers. Rapid chargers kick off at £30k for kit and basic installs...
TooLateForAName said:
Those 3 phase units are very expensive
Might be worth looking at http://insideevs.com/siemens-unveils-single-phase-...
They are single phase and are about half the power of the big rapid charge units - but I'd expect them to be much cheaper.
Not a lot of point to UK market- All single phase supplies are 100amp (if that) and the electric board don't evan like you using that in many areas due to the age of the network/cabling.Might be worth looking at http://insideevs.com/siemens-unveils-single-phase-...
They are single phase and are about half the power of the big rapid charge units - but I'd expect them to be much cheaper.
Only way to get over 100 amps here is to go 3 phase first at which point using high capacity single phase is pointless, 200amp single phase is more common in the states.
Edited by hairyben on Friday 1st January 14:47
Sorry guys, I had completely missed that there had been responses to this, thanks so much for what you've all said so far.
To answer the questions & to provide some further clarification:
1. We will have a fleet of 8 Nissan Leaf (2nd gen) cars and 1 - 2 Nissan Pathfinders, replacing a fleet of Fiesta vans and a Landrover Discovery. There will also be a couple of minibuses / MPVs, if Tesla ever launch their MPV.
2. We've had a 1st gen Leaf on trial for a fortnight and put it to work on the Fiesta fleet duties. We found that although mileage is local journeys, with rotating beacons & driver "comfort" ancillaries etc it needed a 30 minute charge at least once per shift. This can be tied in with a 30 minute dwell at the home base whilst parts / people and paperwork is collected for the next trip. These trips are sufficiently staggered that the full fleet will have time in their working day to cycle through the 2 rapid chargers with no queuing.
The Pathfinder will charge overnight, as will any Leafs that need it. The operation is 24/7 so there will be people to shuffle vehicles through the chargers as required.
3. We have a lot of power available. We are operating a medium sized stores warehouse in what was a large rebar bending shed, we haven't had to put a shilling in the meter in years.
4. We need the most intelligent and fancy-dan charging units available, or rather "we" think we do - this is part of a wider roll out driven partly by local politics which have a significant influence on our future as a business so strategy is set way above my pay grade. As an example, although we won't be recovering the cost initially, we are part of a larger multi user facility and will need the capability to do this later on. Rapid charging will become more of a need as we and the other users around us move more and more to a ZEC based fleet.
5. There is some civils work involved, but this is to create the charging bays rather than anything else, and I was excluding that from my original assessment. The cabling distance is less than 5m and we will probably run the cabling on a gantry rather than below the ground.
To answer the questions & to provide some further clarification:
1. We will have a fleet of 8 Nissan Leaf (2nd gen) cars and 1 - 2 Nissan Pathfinders, replacing a fleet of Fiesta vans and a Landrover Discovery. There will also be a couple of minibuses / MPVs, if Tesla ever launch their MPV.
2. We've had a 1st gen Leaf on trial for a fortnight and put it to work on the Fiesta fleet duties. We found that although mileage is local journeys, with rotating beacons & driver "comfort" ancillaries etc it needed a 30 minute charge at least once per shift. This can be tied in with a 30 minute dwell at the home base whilst parts / people and paperwork is collected for the next trip. These trips are sufficiently staggered that the full fleet will have time in their working day to cycle through the 2 rapid chargers with no queuing.
The Pathfinder will charge overnight, as will any Leafs that need it. The operation is 24/7 so there will be people to shuffle vehicles through the chargers as required.
3. We have a lot of power available. We are operating a medium sized stores warehouse in what was a large rebar bending shed, we haven't had to put a shilling in the meter in years.
4. We need the most intelligent and fancy-dan charging units available, or rather "we" think we do - this is part of a wider roll out driven partly by local politics which have a significant influence on our future as a business so strategy is set way above my pay grade. As an example, although we won't be recovering the cost initially, we are part of a larger multi user facility and will need the capability to do this later on. Rapid charging will become more of a need as we and the other users around us move more and more to a ZEC based fleet.
5. There is some civils work involved, but this is to create the charging bays rather than anything else, and I was excluding that from my original assessment. The cabling distance is less than 5m and we will probably run the cabling on a gantry rather than below the ground.
I'd suggest you talk to Michelle at C&C taxis
https://www.facebook.com/candctaxis
They run a fleet of Leafs as taxis and I think I'm correct in saying that they have the highest mileage leafs in the UK.
iirc they use a rapid to 80% and then move them onto 32Amp chargers - they found that the total charge time was faster that way.
https://www.facebook.com/candctaxis
They run a fleet of Leafs as taxis and I think I'm correct in saying that they have the highest mileage leafs in the UK.
iirc they use a rapid to 80% and then move them onto 32Amp chargers - they found that the total charge time was faster that way.
TooLateForAName said:
I'd suggest you talk to Michelle at C&C taxis
https://www.facebook.com/candctaxis
They run a fleet of Leafs as taxis and I think I'm correct in saying that they have the highest mileage leafs in the UK.
iirc they use a rapid to 80% and then move them onto 32Amp chargers - they found that the total charge time was faster that way.
That was the guidance we had with the Leaf demonstrator, which was borne out by the https://www.facebook.com/candctaxis
They run a fleet of Leafs as taxis and I think I'm correct in saying that they have the highest mileage leafs in the UK.
iirc they use a rapid to 80% and then move them onto 32Amp chargers - they found that the total charge time was faster that way.
How was the supplier picked? I imagine there are installers taking liberties knowing some companies who write a cheque no matter the total bill.
I believe the DBT units are £8-10k before install? The install won't be any more complex than any other 3-phase commercial electrical works and shouldn't need a specialist as such.
I believe the DBT units are £8-10k before install? The install won't be any more complex than any other 3-phase commercial electrical works and shouldn't need a specialist as such.
Gareth79 said:
How was the supplier picked? I imagine there are installers taking liberties knowing some companies who write a cheque no matter the total bill.
I believe the DBT units are £8-10k before install? The install won't be any more complex than any other 3-phase commercial electrical works and shouldn't need a specialist as such.
We're part of a complex industrial facility with internal training & qualifications required for electricians (individual and companies) before they can start work on our site. There is a premium charged for work at this location as a result, but we now have gone for several prices rather than the single quote we had before, so we should get to the truth of it soon enoughI believe the DBT units are £8-10k before install? The install won't be any more complex than any other 3-phase commercial electrical works and shouldn't need a specialist as such.
Collectingbrass said:
I meant Outlander, sorry
Doh. I was getting excited then. Used to have a Navarra before I downsized several times... Xtrail to Juke to i3.I've been looking at the cost of rapid installs for starting up a charging network. If you are looking at 50kW you won't get much change from £50k installed with signage... don't park here, painted spaces etc. Possible supply upgrade for fast switching 50kW loads.
Look at the 22kW single head units these save quite a bit of cash and only take 10 minutes longer than a 50kW as the charge rate slows from 50Kw down to 25ish after the 1st 10 minutes anyway. Thinking to the future you can run a pair of 22kW units from the same electric supply as 1 50kW but charge 2 cars in 40 minutes as opposed to one in 30. As mentioned already Siemens do a small 22kW DC unit that's designed for non public sites like yours. Was hoping it would be cheap but I think it's something like £6k plus vat. BMW USA are selling a 22kW CCS unit for $6,000. But not available here and no use for Chademo anyway.
Lastly as posted above also stick a dual socket AC 7/22kW units alongside if you have 3 phase. The cost of a 3 phase 22kW AC unit is only about £100 more than a 7kW single phase unit but if you have a Renault Zoe or a Tesla they can pull the full 22kW. Other cars will just take leccy from the a single phase.
Get into the habit of telling people to get off the rapid DC into the AC as soon as charge rate drops to 7kw. Iirc the onboard ac to dc chargers allow the battery management system to better balance the cells. (Though I may have that the wrong way round).
I'd be a little wary of the DBT units based on experiences of Ecotricity Electric Highway. They've been notoriously unreliable. Worth getting a quote for Siemens (rebadged efacec) or the best on the market ABB. install cost will be the same but box costs vary. Get someone to show you the insides and you won't pick DBT... made in France and is what you'd expect. Looks more like italian given the spaghetti inside. Lol.
C&C taxis don't seem to have had trouble with theirs though. So maybe it's just the abuse public give the DBTs is causing the problems. Things like hanging chargers on the cable clip so the head catches rain water and pulling them out mid charge with 50kW running through them.
Phunk said:
One thing to note with Outlanders is that when rapid charged they automatically cutout at 80%, so you'll probably be best charging off the EVSE overnight.
I thought that was an option in the settings - it certainly is in the Leaf. Its supposed to be better for the battery to charge to 80%
TooLateForAName said:
Phunk said:
One thing to note with Outlanders is that when rapid charged they automatically cutout at 80%, so you'll probably be best charging off the EVSE overnight.
I thought that was an option in the settings - it certainly is in the Leaf. Its supposed to be better for the battery to charge to 80%
The whole rapid charging to 80% Myth has been dispelled I think.
Spoke to the owner of 20 30 20 Taxis in Dundee about it as he runs quite a few Leafs and has 5 rapid chargers. Not seen any battery issues with charging above 80%
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