Unpaid time during the working day?
Discussion
Interesting article in the Guardian today about Sports Direct staff and staff wages effectively dropping below min wage due to searches/clocking on late.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/dec/09/ho...
It got me thinking about my working time before I got a “proper” job. When in a supermarket we were sometimes searched before leaving the building on my own time and also the clocking machine would work in units of time that would not take into account late starts or late finishes.
EDIT: Thought of another, at a small supermarket in the village we needed to cash up the till after the shop shut and then lock up in our own time.
I also worked on an industrial shop floor where you needed to be at your machine for start time and leave at end time so each day would also have an additional 40ish minutes of “unpaid” work time (although still well above min wage) per day. Same for lunchtime, a 30 minute break would include walking to canteen, cleaning up and walking back so a 30 minute break was only really 15 minutes “rest time”.
Now at the time I just accepted it as the way things were and was above min wage with both jobs so the argument for sports direct isn’t valid but I just wonder how much time per day (on an hourly pay type job) do people accept as unpaid time during the working day?
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/dec/09/ho...
It got me thinking about my working time before I got a “proper” job. When in a supermarket we were sometimes searched before leaving the building on my own time and also the clocking machine would work in units of time that would not take into account late starts or late finishes.
EDIT: Thought of another, at a small supermarket in the village we needed to cash up the till after the shop shut and then lock up in our own time.
I also worked on an industrial shop floor where you needed to be at your machine for start time and leave at end time so each day would also have an additional 40ish minutes of “unpaid” work time (although still well above min wage) per day. Same for lunchtime, a 30 minute break would include walking to canteen, cleaning up and walking back so a 30 minute break was only really 15 minutes “rest time”.
Now at the time I just accepted it as the way things were and was above min wage with both jobs so the argument for sports direct isn’t valid but I just wonder how much time per day (on an hourly pay type job) do people accept as unpaid time during the working day?
Edited by Type R Tom on Thursday 10th December 10:06
My first job, not counting my paper round, was in JD Sports and was truly awful.
There was no organisation, you didn't know how many hours you'd get the next week, it could be 4, it could be 24, it just depends if the manager likes you that week. Or if you piss them off slightly you'll find yourself in a pickle...
Then there was the threat of stealing, of course because shoplifters generally like to wear that stuff, so they would steal a lot of tracksuits etc... At the end of the night there was 1 hour to do "standards" where you basically clean a little and make the clothes look presentable, and you also had to count all of the "at risk" items and log them. Generally we'd be there an extra hour because they'd say you're fired if you leave, since they had to search you in front of a security camera every time you left the shop...
There was a point when we got a new store manager, an ambitious young guy, no new assistants, and everyone put on their time slips the actual hours they worked which more or less sorted that out.
But, same rules as other places in that you have to be on the shop floor when your shift starts. Before that you have to sign in, check your target, get updated on everything, talk to your supervisor.
So call it an extra hour worked every shift, average 4 a week for 18 months, on £4.25 an hour... They owe me £1326!
One amusing story was an assistant manager who had worked part time for about 7 years, and he had photocopies of his time slips and pay slips for the entire time, with the intention to sue them for about 20k the second he graduated
There was no organisation, you didn't know how many hours you'd get the next week, it could be 4, it could be 24, it just depends if the manager likes you that week. Or if you piss them off slightly you'll find yourself in a pickle...
Then there was the threat of stealing, of course because shoplifters generally like to wear that stuff, so they would steal a lot of tracksuits etc... At the end of the night there was 1 hour to do "standards" where you basically clean a little and make the clothes look presentable, and you also had to count all of the "at risk" items and log them. Generally we'd be there an extra hour because they'd say you're fired if you leave, since they had to search you in front of a security camera every time you left the shop...
There was a point when we got a new store manager, an ambitious young guy, no new assistants, and everyone put on their time slips the actual hours they worked which more or less sorted that out.
But, same rules as other places in that you have to be on the shop floor when your shift starts. Before that you have to sign in, check your target, get updated on everything, talk to your supervisor.
So call it an extra hour worked every shift, average 4 a week for 18 months, on £4.25 an hour... They owe me £1326!
One amusing story was an assistant manager who had worked part time for about 7 years, and he had photocopies of his time slips and pay slips for the entire time, with the intention to sue them for about 20k the second he graduated
I suspect a lot of it depends on the attitude of the employee and the employer.
I often turn up for work 20-30 minutes early and I often leave 10-15 minutes early or work a certain amount over.
I can't say I keep track of every single second they owe me and equally they don't keep track of every single second I owe them as thankfully it isn't that kind of a working environment.
If I worked for Sports Direct and they're as bad as the recent articles suggest want paying for every f
king second.
I often turn up for work 20-30 minutes early and I often leave 10-15 minutes early or work a certain amount over.
I can't say I keep track of every single second they owe me and equally they don't keep track of every single second I owe them as thankfully it isn't that kind of a working environment.
If I worked for Sports Direct and they're as bad as the recent articles suggest want paying for every f
king second.Some companies are worse.
My wife worked as a carer for a short period. They would dictate how long a job should take so thats how much they would pay you. They would not pay for travelling time, and only paid 10p per mile expenses. They would not pay for parking.
You might get sent to the next town to do a half hour job, that would be a 1 hour round trip plus the job would probably take 40-50 minutes. For that you would get about £3 in pay, minus your costs. On a good day you might get 4 or 5 jobs done in 7-8 hours, so nearly £15 for a days work.
She lasted about a week.
My wife worked as a carer for a short period. They would dictate how long a job should take so thats how much they would pay you. They would not pay for travelling time, and only paid 10p per mile expenses. They would not pay for parking.
You might get sent to the next town to do a half hour job, that would be a 1 hour round trip plus the job would probably take 40-50 minutes. For that you would get about £3 in pay, minus your costs. On a good day you might get 4 or 5 jobs done in 7-8 hours, so nearly £15 for a days work.
She lasted about a week.
I read about this in the Guardian too. They are having quite a bit of a moan about the 6 "strikes" and you're out rules:
To me, most of these make perfect sense, and I wish I could enforce something so transparent in my office.
The only one that worries me is the "suspicion o theft" which seems very open to abuse...
I would always expect the paid shift time to be "productive" time. It annoys me like mad when people (not my team) roll into work at 9am and then proceed to make breakfast (i.e. porridge or toast) and sit and eat it, before getting to their desk. FFS you should feed yourself in your own time.
You don't get paid for commuting - why should the company pay you for time when you're not earning them money?
I don't agree with holding people unpaid for searches (should be paid IMO) but to be fair, they're only searching staff because stuff gets knicked....
Ian
To me, most of these make perfect sense, and I wish I could enforce something so transparent in my office.
The only one that worries me is the "suspicion o theft" which seems very open to abuse...
I would always expect the paid shift time to be "productive" time. It annoys me like mad when people (not my team) roll into work at 9am and then proceed to make breakfast (i.e. porridge or toast) and sit and eat it, before getting to their desk. FFS you should feed yourself in your own time.
You don't get paid for commuting - why should the company pay you for time when you're not earning them money?
I don't agree with holding people unpaid for searches (should be paid IMO) but to be fair, they're only searching staff because stuff gets knicked....
Ian
Type R Tom said:
Interesting article in the Guardian today about Sports Direct staff and staff wages effectively dropping below min wage due to searches/clocking on late.
This is gutter reporting of the highest order, along with the wail.You clock on late you get docked time. f
king turn up on time.searches are part and parcel of clocking off, no different from any manufacturer or warehouse in the UK. What they won't tell you is the lazy f
kers have been hiding in the locker room or by the clocking machine for up to 20 minutes before the end of shift on the fecking first place.Shyte managers, mostly.
SidJames said:
Type R Tom said:
Interesting article in the Guardian today about Sports Direct staff and staff wages effectively dropping below min wage due to searches/clocking on late.
This is gutter reporting of the highest order, along with the wail.You clock on late you get docked time. f
king turn up on time.searches are part and parcel of clocking off, no different from any manufacturer or warehouse in the UK. What they won't tell you is the lazy f
kers have been hiding in the locker room or by the clocking machine for up to 20 minutes before the end of shift on the fecking first place.Shyte managers, mostly.
Some of these views are kind of what I'm getting at. If you are late then you shouldn't get paid obviously but if you are 1 minute late should you be "punished" by losing 15 minutes pay? Or is it just a case with low paid work that you like it or lump it?
Also how much time is reasonable to not be paid during the work day for, lets call it admin? Things like meeting HR during your own unpaid time because you were sick? Or in my cash cashing up the tills?
As I said I've worked jobs with clocks before and certain expectations, I suppose at the time I was young and a little naive but as I've got older I just don't like seeing people have the piss taken out of them.
I suppose with more cheap labour in the country now companies can do what they like as there will always be someone else to fill the position if you don't like it.
Also how much time is reasonable to not be paid during the work day for, lets call it admin? Things like meeting HR during your own unpaid time because you were sick? Or in my cash cashing up the tills?
As I said I've worked jobs with clocks before and certain expectations, I suppose at the time I was young and a little naive but as I've got older I just don't like seeing people have the piss taken out of them.
I suppose with more cheap labour in the country now companies can do what they like as there will always be someone else to fill the position if you don't like it.
Ian Geary said:
I read about this in the Guardian too. They are having quite a bit of a moan about the 6 "strikes" and you're out rules:
To me, most of these make perfect sense, and I wish I could enforce something so transparent in my office.
The only one that worries me is the "suspicion o theft" which seems very open to abuse...
<snip>
Ian
this is also why a lot of employers like to use agency staff ... best job interview going - both waysTo me, most of these make perfect sense, and I wish I could enforce something so transparent in my office.
The only one that worries me is the "suspicion o theft" which seems very open to abuse...
<snip>
Ian
Working for the NHS i have to work accruing time in lieu.
Example,
On a night shift which is 7pm till 7.15am i have an unpaid break of 1 hour and get 32 mins time owed to be used when suitable for work and myself. This is because i go over the std hours. I work 3 nights one week, then 4 the week after. On a month its 2x 3 night shifts and 2 x 4 night shifts.
This is common practice and generally works however on a night shift we work at an enhanced hourly rate. When we use some of the time in lieu accrued, i lose enhancements.
Eg Sunday shift of 12 hours, i get enhancements for working Sundays. I decide i want to go in at 10am. I use 3 hours til, my wages will be 3 hours at the standard rate which i personally feel is wrong.
Example,
On a night shift which is 7pm till 7.15am i have an unpaid break of 1 hour and get 32 mins time owed to be used when suitable for work and myself. This is because i go over the std hours. I work 3 nights one week, then 4 the week after. On a month its 2x 3 night shifts and 2 x 4 night shifts.
This is common practice and generally works however on a night shift we work at an enhanced hourly rate. When we use some of the time in lieu accrued, i lose enhancements.
Eg Sunday shift of 12 hours, i get enhancements for working Sundays. I decide i want to go in at 10am. I use 3 hours til, my wages will be 3 hours at the standard rate which i personally feel is wrong.
Sports Direct to review worker rights
They will want to know first how the incompetant managers couldn't keep it under wraps.
Type R Tom said:
Some of these views are kind of what I'm getting at. If you are late then you shouldn't get paid obviously but if you are 1 minute late should you be "punished" by losing 15 minutes pay? Or is it just a case with low paid work that you like it or lump it?
During my time working in warehouses, if this happened I would just stand by the clocking in machine for the entire 15 minutes just to wind them up.colinevan said:
Working for the NHS i have to work accruing time in lieu.
Example,
On a night shift which is 7pm till 7.15am i have an unpaid break of 1 hour and get 32 mins time owed to be used when suitable for work and myself. This is because i go over the std hours. I work 3 nights one week, then 4 the week after. On a month its 2x 3 night shifts and 2 x 4 night shifts.
This is common practice and generally works however on a night shift we work at an enhanced hourly rate. When we use some of the time in lieu accrued, i lose enhancements.
Eg Sunday shift of 12 hours, i get enhancements for working Sundays. I decide i want to go in at 10am. I use 3 hours til, my wages will be 3 hours at the standard rate which i personally feel is wrong.
There was an EU ruling on this sort of thing recently. Employees can't loose out on shift or overtime pay when on leave. Don't know if your situation is similar.Example,
On a night shift which is 7pm till 7.15am i have an unpaid break of 1 hour and get 32 mins time owed to be used when suitable for work and myself. This is because i go over the std hours. I work 3 nights one week, then 4 the week after. On a month its 2x 3 night shifts and 2 x 4 night shifts.
This is common practice and generally works however on a night shift we work at an enhanced hourly rate. When we use some of the time in lieu accrued, i lose enhancements.
Eg Sunday shift of 12 hours, i get enhancements for working Sundays. I decide i want to go in at 10am. I use 3 hours til, my wages will be 3 hours at the standard rate which i personally feel is wrong.
Bungleaio said:
Type R Tom said:
Some of these views are kind of what I'm getting at. If you are late then you shouldn't get paid obviously but if you are 1 minute late should you be "punished" by losing 15 minutes pay? Or is it just a case with low paid work that you like it or lump it?
During my time working in warehouses, if this happened I would just stand by the clocking in machine for the entire 15 minutes just to wind them up.
nice one.
I would do the same to be honest if they were going to be like that!
seems if you are unfortunately stuck in a low end job you often get screwed.
It's old thread, but it's the same where I work. I'm generally always on time. But say like today there was about 10 cars in front of me following a Honda jazz, doing 25mph in a 40, for about 3 miles. I know there in no rush to get to the bowls club or whatever, but you lost me half an hour's wages by making me 30 seconds late. It really kills me when it happens, so frustrating.
Noesph said:
It's old thread, but it's the same where I work. I'm generally always on time. But say like today there was about 10 cars in front of me following a Honda jazz, doing 25mph in a 40, for about 3 miles. I know there in no rush to get to the bowls club or whatever, but you lost me half an hour's wages by making me 30 seconds late. It really kills me when it happens, so frustrating.
But that is your time, not the employers time.The issue is really when the employer forces you to be really or late as part of your contract yet doesn't pay for that time.
My example was having to get in 15 minutes early to boot up an old and slow-booting computer so it was ready for 9am start. My argument was that my unpaid 15 minutes was used to cover up the fact that they weren't updating their IT enough.
My company do the old "eight hour day with a half hour unpaid lunchbreak" trick, i.e. an 8.5 hour day.
My staff often ask me why - given that most of them get their (offsite) work done then just have an arbitrary 'lunch' back at base towards the end of the day, why they can't just work through and finish half an hour earlier.
To be honest I can't answer them with any conviction as I agree entirely. I know legally we are meant to take a break each day but why unpaid?
If we got paid the same daily rate but it was described as "8.5 hour day with a half hour paid lunchbreak" I can't quite explain why but it would sit better with my staff and I.
My staff often ask me why - given that most of them get their (offsite) work done then just have an arbitrary 'lunch' back at base towards the end of the day, why they can't just work through and finish half an hour earlier.
To be honest I can't answer them with any conviction as I agree entirely. I know legally we are meant to take a break each day but why unpaid?
If we got paid the same daily rate but it was described as "8.5 hour day with a half hour paid lunchbreak" I can't quite explain why but it would sit better with my staff and I.
Johnnytheboy said:
My company do the old "eight hour day with a half hour unpaid lunchbreak" trick, i.e. an 8.5 hour day.
My staff often ask me why - given that most of them get their (offsite) work done then just have an arbitrary 'lunch' back at base towards the end of the day, why they can't just work through and finish half an hour earlier.
To be honest I can't answer them with any conviction as I agree entirely. I know legally we are meant to take a break each day but why unpaid?
If we got paid the same daily rate but it was described as "8.5 hour day with a half hour paid lunchbreak" I can't quite explain why but it would sit better with my staff and I.
Breaks are not required to be paid by law, but working time directives do stipulate that you are given time off during the day, if you work longer than 6 hours My staff often ask me why - given that most of them get their (offsite) work done then just have an arbitrary 'lunch' back at base towards the end of the day, why they can't just work through and finish half an hour earlier.
To be honest I can't answer them with any conviction as I agree entirely. I know legally we are meant to take a break each day but why unpaid?
If we got paid the same daily rate but it was described as "8.5 hour day with a half hour paid lunchbreak" I can't quite explain why but it would sit better with my staff and I.
And you can't just tack a break on at the start or end of a day to make up for extra work, it has to be reasonably "somewhere sort of in the middle" so hence a lunch break
In your example though, if you suddenly tell people they are being given a 30 minute paid lunchbreak, they'll want to see the difference between a 40 hour week and a 42.5 hour week - it'll come down to money. You won't get anything extra out of them work wise, they'll still do the same amount of work but you've changed their hours "on paper" and whilst you say it will sit better now, consider the future and different staff etc.
I was in a fortunate position of working a job where meal breaks were paid, I was on site for 40 hours per week, and paid for 40 hours per week and still got meal breaks, and this was in a job which was an hourly wage role rather than a day rate/annual salary type thing.
Gassing Station | Jobs & Employment Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff