Streetlights to define speed limits, out of date?
Discussion
I think part of the problem with speed limits these days is that there is often little correlation between the road layout / look and feel and the speed limit. When the laws were established, 30 mph limit was mostly single carriageway in a town, Expressways were defined that had 40 / 60 limits, and Motorways were 70. Generally by looking out of the window you had a pretty good idea what the speed limit was, and if you were caught exceeding it you could explain your reasoning and get a slap on the wrist with an acceptance that things could be a bit confusing.
Now we have urban dual carriageways with 30 limits, roads across open countryside with 50 limits, urban 20 mph zones, motorways with variable between 40 and 70, single carriageway motorways, lit junctions that satisfy the 30 mph criteria on a road that is NSL elsewhere, etc. There are limits established because of noise reduction or other environmental reasons. So the relationship between apparent danger and the speed limit has gone. The basic correlation between scenery and speed limit has also gone and so signage is very important due to the strict nature of automated enforcement.
For people that are not interested in driving, and even for some that are, this can get confusing. The use of street lights as a means of signage is inadequate these days IMO. Roads should have "30" repeaters where appropriate. And in particular if drivers are regularly caught by camera exceeding a 30 limit then that area should be signed to encourage compliance.
Thoughts?
Now we have urban dual carriageways with 30 limits, roads across open countryside with 50 limits, urban 20 mph zones, motorways with variable between 40 and 70, single carriageway motorways, lit junctions that satisfy the 30 mph criteria on a road that is NSL elsewhere, etc. There are limits established because of noise reduction or other environmental reasons. So the relationship between apparent danger and the speed limit has gone. The basic correlation between scenery and speed limit has also gone and so signage is very important due to the strict nature of automated enforcement.
For people that are not interested in driving, and even for some that are, this can get confusing. The use of street lights as a means of signage is inadequate these days IMO. Roads should have "30" repeaters where appropriate. And in particular if drivers are regularly caught by camera exceeding a 30 limit then that area should be signed to encourage compliance.
Thoughts?
speedking31 said:
...When the laws were established,..Motorways were 70. .
Erm...no. Within my lifetime, motorways were completely derestricted. In a car with my father back in the day and he would keep it absolutely flat out for several miles. Shame it was a Ford Prefect with a sizzling 23bhp...speedking31 said:
I think part of the problem with speed limits these days is that there is often little correlation between the road layout / look and feel and the speed limit. When the laws were established, 30 mph limit was mostly single carriageway in a town, Expressways were defined that had 40 / 60 limits, and Motorways were 70. Generally by looking out of the window you had a pretty good idea what the speed limit was, and if you were caught exceeding it you could explain your reasoning and get a slap on the wrist with an acceptance that things could be a bit confusing.
Now we have urban dual carriageways with 30 limits, roads across open countryside with 50 limits, urban 20 mph zones, motorways with variable between 40 and 70, single carriageway motorways, lit junctions that satisfy the 30 mph criteria on a road that is NSL elsewhere, etc. There are limits established because of noise reduction or other environmental reasons. So the relationship between apparent danger and the speed limit has gone. The basic correlation between scenery and speed limit has also gone and so signage is very important due to the strict nature of automated enforcement.
For people that are not interested in driving, and even for some that are, this can get confusing. The use of street lights as a means of signage is inadequate these days IMO. Roads should have "30" repeaters where appropriate. And in particular if drivers are regularly caught by camera exceeding a 30 limit then that area should be signed to encourage compliance.
Thoughts?
If there is street lighting and you see no signs the limit is 30mph; how can that be confusing?Now we have urban dual carriageways with 30 limits, roads across open countryside with 50 limits, urban 20 mph zones, motorways with variable between 40 and 70, single carriageway motorways, lit junctions that satisfy the 30 mph criteria on a road that is NSL elsewhere, etc. There are limits established because of noise reduction or other environmental reasons. So the relationship between apparent danger and the speed limit has gone. The basic correlation between scenery and speed limit has also gone and so signage is very important due to the strict nature of automated enforcement.
For people that are not interested in driving, and even for some that are, this can get confusing. The use of street lights as a means of signage is inadequate these days IMO. Roads should have "30" repeaters where appropriate. And in particular if drivers are regularly caught by camera exceeding a 30 limit then that area should be signed to encourage compliance.
Thoughts?
Why should governments spend £billions on installing signs for drivers who "get confused" by the simplest of principles?
If people are so easily confused by the simple principle then they really need to be considering giving up their licence to drive...of course if they are that easily confsed it should be taken from them...oh hang on...it will be.
Drivers really ought to tell what the speed limit by, as you said, looking out of the window; I can so why can others not do so...it isn't difficult after all.
Edited by tapereel on Friday 11th December 14:00
littleredrooster said:
speedking31 said:
...When the laws were established,..Motorways were 70. .
Erm...no. Within my lifetime, motorways were completely derestricted. In a car with my father back in the day and he would keep it absolutely flat out for several miles. Shame it was a Ford Prefect with a sizzling 23bhp...speedking31 said:
The use of street lights as a means of signage is inadequate these days IMO.
I think the street light requirement is too vague when the consequences to speeding can be severe.This is a road I regularly drive down.
The street light is mounted to a telegraph pole which itself is on the corner of two roads. It's pointing in the the direction of one of those roads. Does this count as a street light for both roads or only one of them? How far back from the road is it allowed to be before it is no longer considered a 'street light'? How large/bright does the light have to be considered a 'street light'?
Another issue is a 30mph limit continuing well after a village. It's entirely reasonable for the limit to start well before habitation when you're approaching - to give you a warning and the chance to slow down gradually.
But because the law says you can't have different limits on either side of a SC road, 30mph long after you're past the last house is silly.
But because the law says you can't have different limits on either side of a SC road, 30mph long after you're past the last house is silly.
tapereel said:
If there is street lighting and you see no signs the limit is 30mph; how can that be confusing?
"Street lights at no more than 200 yards apart are required for 30mph zones".1st area for possible confusion - So if one was joining a road and quickly got up to speed before they past numerous light columns (or just lights - that may be on or off in the day time), you'd accept that it could raise an issue ? or not?
2nd area for possible confusion - the 200 yards element - most people these days use metres and are not familiar with yards. Granted many would just say "its about 200m", but then how far is 200m when looking at the verge whilst travelling X mph ? (Can this be done accurately enough on immediatley entering a 30mph zone? - given that the lights may be off during daytime and columns partially obscured by trees, hedges, parked vehicles?
I agree with the OP - using lighting columns as a means of marking out a speed limit is outdated and unreliable.
ALT F4 said:
"Street lights at no more than 200 yards apart are required for 30mph zones".
1st area for possible confusion - So if one was joining a road and quickly got up to speed before they past numerous light columns (or just lights - that may be on or off in the day time), you'd accept that it could raise an issue ? or not?
...
What was the limit on the preceding road one drove down? If it is different to that of the new road then there will be "terminal signs" indicating the change of speed limit as one enters the new road. No "terminal signs" then no change of speed limit.1st area for possible confusion - So if one was joining a road and quickly got up to speed before they past numerous light columns (or just lights - that may be on or off in the day time), you'd accept that it could raise an issue ? or not?
...
Two words - "planned" & "drive"
.ALT F4 said:
...
2nd area for possible confusion - the 200 yards element - most people these days use metres and are not familiar with yards. Granted many would just say "its about 200m", but then how far is 200m when looking at the verge whilst travelling X mph ? (Can this be done accurately enough on immediatley entering a 30mph zone? - given that the lights may be off during daytime and columns partially obscured by trees, hedges, parked vehicles?
...
200 yards is 1/8th of a mile (which is 1609 yards approx.), so 200 yards takes just about 15 seconds to travel at 30mph. How to work this out without clock-watching??2nd area for possible confusion - the 200 yards element - most people these days use metres and are not familiar with yards. Granted many would just say "its about 200m", but then how far is 200m when looking at the verge whilst travelling X mph ? (Can this be done accurately enough on immediatley entering a 30mph zone? - given that the lights may be off during daytime and columns partially obscured by trees, hedges, parked vehicles?
...
Oh, I don't know... Try muttering something like "only a prat leaves a two second gap" (which is supposed to take 2 seconds to say) over and over, and if you manage to repeat it eight times (or more) between lamp posts while driving at 30mph then it's not a 30 limit.
At 40mph, 200 yards will take 11.25 second to drive; in a 50 the time is 9 seconds and in a 60 it is 7.5 seconds. So you just need to repear the two second mantra enough times to establish that the lamp posts are (or are not) 200 years or less apart
.---
tl;dr: Using lamp posts spaced no more than a certain distance apart to indicate a 30 limit is quite logical....
ALT F4 said:
tapereel said:
If there is street lighting and you see no signs the limit is 30mph; how can that be confusing?
"Street lights at no more than 200 yards apart are required for 30mph zones".1st area for possible confusion - So if one was joining a road and quickly got up to speed before they past numerous light columns (or just lights - that may be on or off in the day time), you'd accept that it could raise an issue ? or not?
ALT F4 said:
2nd area for possible confusion - the 200 yards element - most people these days use metres and are not familiar with yards. Granted many would just say "its about 200m", but then how far is 200m when looking at the verge whilst travelling X mph ? (Can this be done accurately enough on immediatley entering a 30mph zone? - given that the lights may be off during daytime and columns partially obscured by trees, hedges, parked vehicles?
I agree with the OP - using lighting columns as a means of marking out a speed limit is outdated and unreliable.
When you enter a 30mph speed limit you will see a sign or 2 that says 30 with a big red circle on them. No more signs and street lamps then the speed limit continues to be 30mph. If the lighting columns do not form a system of street lighting at 200yd intervals then you will see a speed limit sign to indicate the speed limit that is other than 30 or indeed that it remains 30. No signs after a 30 gateway sign and the limit stays at 30 when you have street lighting.I agree with the OP - using lighting columns as a means of marking out a speed limit is outdated and unreliable.
So I don't agree with you or the OP and I can say that neither of you have sufficient knowledge of the speed limits to hold a licence to drive; both should seek help.
ALT F4 said:
"Street lights at no more than 200 yards apart are required for 30mph zones".
Off topic.Years ago I was good friends with a vicar that had several Brough Superior motorbikes (Google them!) and it didn't have a speedo.
I asked him how he knew how fast he was going - he replied 'You know that in 30mph area the lamp posts are a certain distance apart?
Well, when it's firing at every lamp post I know I'm doing about 70!
tapereel said:
If there is street lighting and you see no signs the limit is 30mph; how can that be confusing?
Why should governments spend £billions on installing signs for drivers who "get confused" by the simplest of principles?
If people are so easily confused by the simple principle then they really need to be considering giving up their licence to drive...of course if they are that easily confsed it should be taken from them...oh hang on...it will be.
Drivers really ought to tell what the speed limit by, as you said, looking out of the window; I can so why can others not do so...it isn't difficult after all.
Yeah,I'm sure most foreign delivery drivers are aware of the streetlight rule...Why should governments spend £billions on installing signs for drivers who "get confused" by the simplest of principles?
If people are so easily confused by the simple principle then they really need to be considering giving up their licence to drive...of course if they are that easily confsed it should be taken from them...oh hang on...it will be.
Drivers really ought to tell what the speed limit by, as you said, looking out of the window; I can so why can others not do so...it isn't difficult after all.
Edited by tapereel on Friday 11th December 14:00
tapereel said:
If there is street lighting and you see no signs the limit is 30mph; how can that be confusing?
Not disputed. However, there is a stretch of B road in Kent that is clearly marked with an NSL sign at each end, but which contains a stretch which you could describe as being a built up area and which has street lights. There are no 30 signs and no repeaters of any kind along its length.
alock said:
speedking31 said:
The use of street lights as a means of signage is inadequate these days IMO.
I think the street light requirement is too vague when the consequences to speeding can be severe.This is a road I regularly drive down.
The street light is mounted to a telegraph pole which itself is on the corner of two roads. It's pointing in the the direction of one of those roads. Does this count as a street light for both roads or only one of them? How far back from the road is it allowed to be before it is no longer considered a 'street light'? How large/bright does the light have to be considered a 'street light'?
OP: pack it in, you fool. There are only 2 NSLs in England, a system of street lighting and no other signage means 30mph, anything else will have repeaters approximately every 20 seconds. It's not difficult it just requires the level of forethought which should be a prerequisite for ANYONE wishing to take to the road in a motor vehicle.
CanAm said:
Funkycoldribena said:
Yeah,I'm sure most foreign delivery drivers are aware of the streetlight rule...
Well, we're supposed to know that putting a village name sign up in France means the speed limit changes, so why not?Anyway ask a few relatives if they know about it and I bet you get some blank looks.
Funkycoldribena said:
CanAm said:
Funkycoldribena said:
Yeah,I'm sure most foreign delivery drivers are aware of the streetlight rule...
Well, we're supposed to know that putting a village name sign up in France means the speed limit changes, so why not?Anyway ask a few relatives if they know about it and I bet you get some blank looks.
tapereel said:
Well just because your relatives hold a driving licence without maintaining the knowledge they had when they qualified to hold it doesn't make them right. At some stage they will hopefully either educate themselves or someone will offer to do that for them. Let's hope it occurs before they case anyone, including themselves some damage..
Let us all bow to your superiority all knowing wise one.Funkycoldribena said:
tapereel said:
Well just because your relatives hold a driving licence without maintaining the knowledge they had when they qualified to hold it doesn't make them right. At some stage they will hopefully either educate themselves or someone will offer to do that for them. Let's hope it occurs before they case anyone, including themselves some damage..
Let us all bow to your superiority all knowing wise one.tapereel said:
Funkycoldribena said:
tapereel said:
Well just because your relatives hold a driving licence without maintaining the knowledge they had when they qualified to hold it doesn't make them right. At some stage they will hopefully either educate themselves or someone will offer to do that for them. Let's hope it occurs before they case anyone, including themselves some damage..
Let us all bow to your superiority all knowing wise one.Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff