Redux Leicht Bau E30 M3
Discussion
Essentially the same sort of thing Singer do with Air cooled 911's. Only for E30 M3's. Take an old car then fit it sympathetically with modern performance parts. Estimated price will be over £100K
Suspect the biggest "issue" to the purists will be Turbocharging the S14. But otherwise I'm interested in how it turns out. Light weight, fully sorted shells, CF panels. Half cages. 6 and 4 pots. Seems a decent recipe. Not so keen on the E46 CSL alike boot lid on the renders in the link below though.
http://petrolicious.com/is-it-possible-to-improve-...
http://reduxleichtbau.com/
Still doing the first 9 cars. So no hard n fast pics yet. Plans are for a further 21.
First discussed in April;
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Not seeing much progress and judging by the debates had elsewhere on the web, not really prepared to listen to those who understand the car the most.
Now that the market for the E30 M3s is where it is, who is going to give up an appreciating asset to be chopped up for something else? When Singer et al came to the fore, the donor cars were cheap relatively
speaking, E30 M3s are no longer cheap. Using non M3 donor shells makes more sense to me.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Not seeing much progress and judging by the debates had elsewhere on the web, not really prepared to listen to those who understand the car the most.
Now that the market for the E30 M3s is where it is, who is going to give up an appreciating asset to be chopped up for something else? When Singer et al came to the fore, the donor cars were cheap relatively
speaking, E30 M3s are no longer cheap. Using non M3 donor shells makes more sense to me.
Edited by stevesingo on Thursday 24th December 22:19
Might be better off doing it to maybe 325i coupe or Touring models and leave the E30 M3s alone? The 325i's in their own right are now becoming desirable and one of those with a fancy set up, maybe an S54 or S85 engine may be even more niche!
I wouldnt go anywhere near an M3 unless it was to restore it.
I wouldnt go anywhere near an M3 unless it was to restore it.
stevesingo said:
First discussed in April;
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Not seeing much progress and judging by the debates had elsewhere on the web, not really prepared to listen to those who understand the car the most.
Now that the market for the E30 M3s is where it is, who is going to give up an appreciating asset to be chopped up for something else? When Singer et al came to the fore, the donor cars were cheap relatively
speaking, E30 M3s are no longer cheap. Using non M3 donor shells makes more sense to me.
There's a lot of not very good ones out there that I'm more than happy to see chopped about. http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Not seeing much progress and judging by the debates had elsewhere on the web, not really prepared to listen to those who understand the car the most.
Now that the market for the E30 M3s is where it is, who is going to give up an appreciating asset to be chopped up for something else? When Singer et al came to the fore, the donor cars were cheap relatively
speaking, E30 M3s are no longer cheap. Using non M3 donor shells makes more sense to me.
Edited by stevesingo on Thursday 24th December 22:19
Lack of progress would be a concern I suspect.
Not prepared to listen? On the other thread they seem open to non turbo work. Is it that they won't listen to the (numerous and tragic) self appointed Guardians of all things E30 M3? I got sick of those people quickly when I had my not mint but top 30% one!
Know the price of everything and the value of nothing...
They've dropped the CSL style roof hoop but seemingly added CSL silly front bumper and rear E46 style boot lid and big spoiler. I still don't think this company have understood what has made Singer successful where others have failed and only sold modified cars to a few people of money but no taste.
The key to a Singer 911 is being subtle while appealing to a large market of rich 911 lovers with a car full of the best parts. The M3 I would suggest doesn't have the same level of love or class simply because it has a lot of cheaper brothers in the shape of tatty 318 4 doors. I don't think if Singer did the same with Porsche 924 or even 944 cars that they would sell many.
Sorry ,but this proposed car still looks like something from a 1990 edition of a Ripspeed catalog from a dodgy German body kit maker, oddly timed to appear at a time when people are junking a lot of tat and bad mods and busily restoring M3s.
The key to a Singer 911 is being subtle while appealing to a large market of rich 911 lovers with a car full of the best parts. The M3 I would suggest doesn't have the same level of love or class simply because it has a lot of cheaper brothers in the shape of tatty 318 4 doors. I don't think if Singer did the same with Porsche 924 or even 944 cars that they would sell many.
Sorry ,but this proposed car still looks like something from a 1990 edition of a Ripspeed catalog from a dodgy German body kit maker, oddly timed to appear at a time when people are junking a lot of tat and bad mods and busily restoring M3s.
It's not for me but, judging by the fact 9 orders have been placed (with a tenth on the cards very soon), it would appear there are others who certainly want what's on offer.
Singer 911 worked because they were able to take a more modern (somewhat cheaper model) and backdate the styling, whilst upgrading performance. I just don't see what's being done here in the same light. Personally I would have gone with the BMW 2002. You could convert later, cheaper cars to more desirable early spec' and upgraded the m10 engine with either a turbo or supercharger. Mind you, it's not too hard to get 170-180 brake without either and that's enough to pep up performance. There are also a selection of wide arch conversions available, should you want something a bit more shouty?!
Another thing with the LRB M3, is they're even more unlikely to venture out of there carpeted, dehumidified garages than stock versions and they're a rare enough sight as it is.
Singer 911 worked because they were able to take a more modern (somewhat cheaper model) and backdate the styling, whilst upgrading performance. I just don't see what's being done here in the same light. Personally I would have gone with the BMW 2002. You could convert later, cheaper cars to more desirable early spec' and upgraded the m10 engine with either a turbo or supercharger. Mind you, it's not too hard to get 170-180 brake without either and that's enough to pep up performance. There are also a selection of wide arch conversions available, should you want something a bit more shouty?!
Another thing with the LRB M3, is they're even more unlikely to venture out of there carpeted, dehumidified garages than stock versions and they're a rare enough sight as it is.
Edited by e21Mark on Saturday 26th December 23:41
Mr_B said:
I'm surprised 9 or maybe 10 people have committed to the car in some unknown way on the basis of a few drawings and no actual spec of any kind - that's brave.
I may be wrong but I thought each car was to be tailored to each owners specific requirements? I don't know why but I'm not even keen on the amount of replica panels that have been developed now. I can see why folk might want carbon fibre and/or kevlar for competition use and adding lightness, but I can't help but feel this simply means more M3 copies based on lesser models. Albeit better quality than those that have, in the main, been built till now. I did baulk at the prices of these panels though. I know vendors will be looking to recoup development costs and earn a crust, but some of the figures being banded around are ridiculous, with a pair of side skirts at over £3k and even more for a C pillar.
I was under the impression you were buying a kinda base body of their design with their own panels and changes to bumpers and wings and boot lid/or just spoiler as per the drawings, then having to specified to your wish for either a turbo or naturally aspirated engine and cloth/leather trim etc. So you can maybe now spec a standard looking car but with carbon panels and a desired engine spec ?
I got a very good look around a singer at the weekend and the details are sublime, the build quality is top notch.
I admire what this project is about but feel they got to push it further so it is more than an m3 with bolt on bits which is what it feels like to me. The singer runs a motec system using PDMs for power distribution with stuff switched over CAN, mill spec wiring, all the light clusters are made in carbon which is then vacuum metallic plated, enhanced AC, Sound, acoustic insulation. Basically its more of a high end low volume sports car that's built around existing chassis with its outer panels removed, than a restomod.
In some ways i think they would be better build m3's from 2 door e30 shells to create a bespoke car, rather than paying a premium for a vin.
I admire what this project is about but feel they got to push it further so it is more than an m3 with bolt on bits which is what it feels like to me. The singer runs a motec system using PDMs for power distribution with stuff switched over CAN, mill spec wiring, all the light clusters are made in carbon which is then vacuum metallic plated, enhanced AC, Sound, acoustic insulation. Basically its more of a high end low volume sports car that's built around existing chassis with its outer panels removed, than a restomod.
In some ways i think they would be better build m3's from 2 door e30 shells to create a bespoke car, rather than paying a premium for a vin.
e21jason said:
I got a very good look around a singer at the weekend and the details are sublime, the build quality is top notch.
I admire what this project is about but feel they got to push it further so it is more than an m3 with bolt on bits which is what it feels like to me. The singer runs a motec system using PDMs for power distribution with stuff switched over CAN, mill spec wiring, all the light clusters are made in carbon which is then vacuum metallic plated, enhanced AC, Sound, acoustic insulation. Basically its more of a high end low volume sports car that's built around existing chassis with its outer panels removed, than a restomod.
In some ways i think they would be better build m3's from 2 door e30 shells to create a bespoke car, rather than paying a premium for a vin.
The Singer is a very different thing in both execution and concept it seams....they took one of the least loved 911 generations and have built a totally bespoke car in terms of the body and taken mechanicals from different generations of 911 to build a best of etcI admire what this project is about but feel they got to push it further so it is more than an m3 with bolt on bits which is what it feels like to me. The singer runs a motec system using PDMs for power distribution with stuff switched over CAN, mill spec wiring, all the light clusters are made in carbon which is then vacuum metallic plated, enhanced AC, Sound, acoustic insulation. Basically its more of a high end low volume sports car that's built around existing chassis with its outer panels removed, than a restomod.
In some ways i think they would be better build m3's from 2 door e30 shells to create a bespoke car, rather than paying a premium for a vin.
What this E30 is about is taking the best handling BMW ever with pure and hugely successful motorsport heritage and trying to improve on it. The Porsche equivalent would be taking a 2.7RS and trying to improve it.
As far as I know, there is to be a catalogue of improvements whereby owners can pick exactly which modifications they wish to make. I think there is a choice of engine spec', with both turbo'd and normally aspirated, where bespoke crank, rods and pistons have been developed. There are also bespoke ITB's being manufactured.
I know these guys have set the bar extremely high and are aware of just how much attention, a project such as this, can potentially attract. Their goal is to build something that looks as if it could be a factory car, were BMW to have continued to develop it.
I'm looking forward to seeing this progress.
I know these guys have set the bar extremely high and are aware of just how much attention, a project such as this, can potentially attract. Their goal is to build something that looks as if it could be a factory car, were BMW to have continued to develop it.
I'm looking forward to seeing this progress.
I don't know why they feel there is a need for a bespoke crank, rods or pistons. Stock cranks are good for any road engine and long stroke cranks for 2.7 engines are available. Arrow make both stock length and long rods for use with 2.7 cranks. JE and Mahle pistons are available in any configuration you could want.
Custom TB's? Stock 48mm TBs are good enough for 300hp, and there are 49mm TBs and slide throttles available.
I have to wonder as to why they feel they need to spend lots of R&D money (the customers I presume) in reinventing the wheel so to speak.
There are lots of practically off the shelf options for 2.3-2.7 engines ranging from 220hp to 320hp.
Unless of course by bespoke, they mean "we can charge you what you like for it"?
Custom TB's? Stock 48mm TBs are good enough for 300hp, and there are 49mm TBs and slide throttles available.
I have to wonder as to why they feel they need to spend lots of R&D money (the customers I presume) in reinventing the wheel so to speak.
There are lots of practically off the shelf options for 2.3-2.7 engines ranging from 220hp to 320hp.
Unless of course by bespoke, they mean "we can charge you what you like for it"?
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