Tigers in the USA

[TTmonkey]

Just seen on a news report..... There are over 5000 tigers living in captive 'backyard' enclosures in the USA, whereas there are only 3000 in the entire world that live wild.


Hard to understand our world sometimes.

[Jimmy Recard]

Clearly circa 5000 people in the USA want tigers.

Is it that hard to understand?

[AJS-]

Sort of vindicates capitalism in a way.

[Blayney]

AJS- said:

Sort of vindicates capitalism in a way.

Really? Capitalism is exactly the reason there are so few in the wild.

[mcflurry]

IMHO the Tigers should live in the wild.
Possibly with the American owners for their dinner first

[-crookedtail-]

The US seems to have some strange laws in relation to keeping exotic animals - Can anyone remember that documentary where 50 odd tigers* and things escaped and went on a rampage, police had to shoot them


*May or may not have been tigers - But animals definitely escaped!!

[austinsmirk]

I do. Some giant semi private collection in Hicksville. They got loose and local police had no choice but to kill the lot. Civilians were getting hurt. Yet the police got mental abuse for killing the animals.

[stuartmmcfc]

If there were no tigers in captivity in the USA would there be 8000 in the wild or more likely, unfortunately, nearer 3000 still?

[Condi]

Sadly lots are kept in totally unsuitable enclosures. If they were kept to zoo standard then it wouldnt be so bad. Very very few are.

[Art0ir]

There's a good Louis Theroux doc on this actually. Old one, shouldn't be difficult to find online.

[AJS-]

Blayney said:

AJS- said:

Sort of vindicates capitalism in a way.

Really? Capitalism is exactly the reason there are so few in the wild.

No. A complete lack of property rights over tigers and the land they live on is the reason there are so few in the wild. There's no danger of running out of dogs or gerbils.

It may be a bit sad that we can't organise ourselves better to preserve more wild tigers, b ut the idea that they are valuable gives an incentive to breed them and the result is that a country with no native tigers has thousands of them.

[Chrisgr31]

We were discussing this yesterday at dinner, as my brother lives in the UAE. A friend of theirs takes the dog to the vet and is waiting to be seen, when the dog gets agitated. She turns round to see someone has walked in with a tiger on a lead!

[Blayney]

AJS- said:

Blayney said:

AJS- said:

Sort of vindicates capitalism in a way.

Really? Capitalism is exactly the reason there are so few in the wild.

No. A complete lack of property rights over tigers and the land they live on is the reason there are so few in the wild. There's no danger of running out of dogs or gerbils.

It may be a bit sad that we can't organise ourselves better to preserve more wild tigers, b ut the idea that they are valuable gives an incentive to breed them and the result is that a country with no native tigers has thousands of them.

I see your point - but I'm not sure your comparison with dogs or gerbils is quite apples with apples.

I'm definitely not an expert in this at all so I am prepared to be corrected but it seems to me that the whole reason there are so few in the wild is because of the business that has sprung up around them. For fur, pets or just hunting.

It just seems to me that root cause for their low numbers is money. Same goes for Rhinos, Elephants, Whales etc. There was a business set up around their death.

Sure the rights you mention haven't helped their numbers either.

Maybe I'm oversimplifying things?

We aren't running out of dogs because we found a way to make money out of them without killing them. Plus they have been adapted to live in all sorts of conditions all over the world and are particularly easy to breed!

I agree with your last point though.

[TTmonkey]

Blayney said:

AJS- said:

Blayney said:

AJS- said:

Sort of vindicates capitalism in a way.

Really? Capitalism is exactly the reason there are so few in the wild.

No. A complete lack of property rights over tigers and the land they live on is the reason there are so few in the wild. There's no danger of running out of dogs or gerbils.

It may be a bit sad that we can't organise ourselves better to preserve more wild tigers, b ut the idea that they are valuable gives an incentive to breed them and the result is that a country with no native tigers has thousands of them.

I see your point - but I'm not sure your comparison with dogs or gerbils is quite apples with apples.

I'm definitely not an expert in this at all so I am prepared to be corrected but it seems to me that the whole reason there are so few in the wild is because of the business that has sprung up around them. For fur, pets or just hunting.

It just seems to me that root cause for their low numbers is money. Same goes for Rhinos, Elephants, Whales etc. There was a business set up around their death.

Sure the rights you mention haven't helped their numbers either.

Maybe I'm oversimplifying things?

We aren't running out of dogs because we found a way to make money out of them without killing them. Plus they have been adapted to live in all sorts of conditions all over the world and are particularly easy to breed!

I agree with your last point though.

Chinese medical practices are why certain animals are on the brink. There are hundreds of thousands of square miles of Siberian deep forest that tigers can live in, yet they are hunted to near extinction for their pelts and some other 'bits' that the Chinese crave.

[Condi]

TTmonkey said:

Chinese medical practices are why certain animals are on the brink. There are hundreds of thousands of square miles of Siberian deep forest that tigers can live in, yet they are hunted to near extinction for their pelts and some other 'bits' that the Chinese crave.

Meh, part of the thing with Chinese medicine is that 'rare' things have special powers. Which leads to more demand for them. Which involves hunting and thus making them rarer. Which makes them more desirable. Which leads to more demand or incentive to hunt. Which makes them rarer....


As much as we are not saints, what the Chinese are doing to the natural world is a terrible crime and I think will only be dealt with once it is too late. If you've killed off the turtles, sharks, tigers and elephants before you've become educated enough to learn that the 'power' are fictional you cant bring them back.

[Stu R]

-crookedtail- said:

The US seems to have some strange laws in relation to keeping exotic animals - Can anyone remember that documentary where 50 odd tigers* and things escaped and went on a rampage, police had to shoot them


*May or may not have been tigers - But animals definitely escaped!!

I think that was the movie Jumanji

[PD9]

No you are correct. I remember this. Zanesville Animal Massacre:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2050778/Oh...

When the carnage was over, 49 animals were slaughtered, including 18 Bengal tigers, 17 lions, six black bears, a pair of grizzlies, three mountain lions, two wolves and a baboon.

[Art0ir]

PD9 said:

No you are correct. I remember this. Zanesville Animal Massacre:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2050778/Oh...

When the carnage was over, 49 animals were slaughtered, including 18 Bengal tigers, 17 lions, six black bears, a pair of grizzlies, three mountain lions, two wolves and a baboon.

Pretty awful, if I remember correctly the police officers that had to shoot them received harassment including death threats from PETA types afterwards.

There's an interview with one of them where they're in bits describing how they had to prioritise the lives of the people in the area over dozens of these animals and start shooting to kill rather than trying to capture.

[AJS-]

Blayney
Kind of. But the trouble is that the countries where tigers are native haven't found a way to make it in people's interests to ensure there are plenty of tigers, and they lack the will or ability to enforce laws making it illegal. If people could farm tigers for skins and medicine and surely there would be a lot more of them.

Though as I understand Chinese "medicine" it's often the very scarcity of the ingredients which makes them desirable.