Variable Speed Limit Signs
Discussion
My understanding is that when a speed limit is posted it remains in force until the driver passes a different signed limit or a National Speed Limit (diagonal black bar) sign. I am a regular but not frequent motorway user, but this seems to be what I usually see around the variable speed limit sections of the M25 I travel on. So the end of, say, a 50mph section is indicated by a NSL sign on the overhead gantries. This does not always seem to be the case elsewhere (e.g M1 around Luton). Fairly often I pass a series of reduced speed signs and the next gantry (and subsequent ones) are simply blank. It happens often enough for me to be sure that it is not lack of observation on my part. It is obvious that the reduced limit has ended but it seems to me that I am, at least technically, committing an offence in accelerating back to 70 mph. Am I right and can any more frequent motorway users confirm what I believe I see? Also I notice that it seems to be increasingly common for roadworks sections just to erect an "End" sign with no NSL sign. Again the same question arises.
I guess there are two trains of thought on this.
1) the 30mph limit applies unless signed otherwise;
2) the NSL (for that road/area type) applies unless signed otherwise.
I thought that in the absence of signage a motorway reverts to its default of NSL, in the same way that a lit, built-up single-carriageway street is by default a 30mph unless otherwise signed.
All this is of course assuming there's not a 'road order' in place and that the correct is in place.
1) the 30mph limit applies unless signed otherwise;
2) the NSL (for that road/area type) applies unless signed otherwise.
I thought that in the absence of signage a motorway reverts to its default of NSL, in the same way that a lit, built-up single-carriageway street is by default a 30mph unless otherwise signed.
All this is of course assuming there's not a 'road order' in place and that the correct is in place.
mmm-five said:
I guess there are two trains of thought on this.
1) the 30mph limit applies unless signed otherwise;
2) the NSL (for that road/area type) applies unless signed otherwise.
I thought that in the absence of signage a motorway reverts to its default of NSL, in the same way that a lit, built-up single-carriageway street is by default a 30mph unless otherwise signed.
All this is of course assuming there's not a 'road order' in place and that the correct is in place.
If there are two trains of thought, then one of them is completely wrong!1) the 30mph limit applies unless signed otherwise;
2) the NSL (for that road/area type) applies unless signed otherwise.
I thought that in the absence of signage a motorway reverts to its default of NSL, in the same way that a lit, built-up single-carriageway street is by default a 30mph unless otherwise signed.
All this is of course assuming there's not a 'road order' in place and that the correct is in place.
National speed limit applies everywhere, UNLESS signs dictate otherwise. These signs might take the form of speed limit roundels at the side of the road, overhead gantries, painted on the road, or by the presence of street lights not more than 200 yards apart in a built up area:
Section 82(1)(a) (of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (RTRA 1984)) defines a restricted road in England and Wales as a road which is provided with “a system of street lighting furnished by means of lamps placed not more than 200 yards apart”. Section 81 specifically makes it an offence for a person to drive a motor vehicle at a speed of more than 30 mph on a restricted road.
Sushifiend said:
If there are two trains of thought, then one of them is completely wrong!
National speed limit applies everywhere, UNLESS signs dictate otherwise. These signs might take the form of speed limit roundels at the side of the road, overhead gantries, painted on the road, or by the presence of street lights not more than 200 yards apart in a built up area:
Section 82(1)(a) (of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (RTRA 1984)) defines a restricted road in England and Wales as a road which is provided with “a system of street lighting furnished by means of lamps placed not more than 200 yards apart”. Section 81 specifically makes it an offence for a person to drive a motor vehicle at a speed of more than 30 mph on a restricted road.
But don't Motorways come under a different legislation ? National speed limit applies everywhere, UNLESS signs dictate otherwise. These signs might take the form of speed limit roundels at the side of the road, overhead gantries, painted on the road, or by the presence of street lights not more than 200 yards apart in a built up area:
Section 82(1)(a) (of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (RTRA 1984)) defines a restricted road in England and Wales as a road which is provided with “a system of street lighting furnished by means of lamps placed not more than 200 yards apart”. Section 81 specifically makes it an offence for a person to drive a motor vehicle at a speed of more than 30 mph on a restricted road.
I had this last night on the M25 in Surrey, the speed limit signs came up from 60mph to and eventual 40mph and two outside lanes blocked due to an accident. As soon as we passed the accident everyone seemed to get back up to 70ish, including the police car that was near me. There were no signs on any of the gantries after the accident saying the limit was back to normal. So it's nothing like racing where they hold out a green flag when you can get back up to speed 
jagracer said:
I had this last night on the M25 in Surrey, the speed limit signs came up from 60mph to and eventual 40mph and two outside lanes blocked due to an accident. As soon as we passed the accident everyone seemed to get back up to 70ish, including the police car that was near me. There were no signs on any of the gantries after the accident saying the limit was back to normal.
Were the limits in force advisory or mandatory ? I don't know that neck of the woods.
Having done a bit of digging, I came across this document: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3166/pdfs/... which dates from 2013 and relates to the M25 J27-30 but I would hazard reflects the general position.
To quote from it:
"1. This explanatory memorandum has been prepared by the Department for Transport and is laid
before Parliament by Command of Her Majesty.
2. Purpose of the instrument
2.1. The Regulations will restrict drivers on roads to which the Regulations apply from
driving a vehicle at a speed above the maximum indicated by each speed limit sign
passed by that vehicle, until that vehicle passes a sign indicating that the national
speed limit applies, or that vehicle leaves the roads covered by the Regulations. The
roads to which these Regulations apply are the M25 Motorway between junctions 27
and 30 and are more fully described in the Schedule to the Regulations. "
It seems to confirm my fear that there is no authority to return to the NSL until a NSL sign has been passed. In my case this would have been about fifty miles further on after passing through another VSL section on the M25.
I am surprised that the system controlling the signs is not designed to ensure a NSL sign is displayed at the end of a restricted section, but this seems to be the case.
To quote from it:
"1. This explanatory memorandum has been prepared by the Department for Transport and is laid
before Parliament by Command of Her Majesty.
2. Purpose of the instrument
2.1. The Regulations will restrict drivers on roads to which the Regulations apply from
driving a vehicle at a speed above the maximum indicated by each speed limit sign
passed by that vehicle, until that vehicle passes a sign indicating that the national
speed limit applies, or that vehicle leaves the roads covered by the Regulations. The
roads to which these Regulations apply are the M25 Motorway between junctions 27
and 30 and are more fully described in the Schedule to the Regulations. "
It seems to confirm my fear that there is no authority to return to the NSL until a NSL sign has been passed. In my case this would have been about fifty miles further on after passing through another VSL section on the M25.
I am surprised that the system controlling the signs is not designed to ensure a NSL sign is displayed at the end of a restricted section, but this seems to be the case.
speedyguy said:
jagracer said:
I had this last night on the M25 in Surrey, the speed limit signs came up from 60mph to and eventual 40mph and two outside lanes blocked due to an accident. As soon as we passed the accident everyone seemed to get back up to 70ish, including the police car that was near me. There were no signs on any of the gantries after the accident saying the limit was back to normal.
Were the limits in force advisory or mandatory ? I don't know that neck of the woods.
I've had cars flash me a number of times when the speed limit goes from 40 to national speed. I travel at 40 until the point i cross the next gantry that states national speed. Most drivers increase their speed the moment they leave the 40 gantry and see the national speed sign on the next gantry.
barian said:
marked1. I am sure you are following the letter of the law in doing so. But what would you do if you never saw a NSL sign, just a succession of gantries with blank displays?
Sorry, I didn't explain very well on my post. If the next gantry displays no speed I.e blank, I would go back to national speed limit however only at the point I go past the blank ganatry. Edited by marked1 on Thursday 31st December 19:22
barian said:
marked1But my understanding, that nobody has challenged, is that you would then be speeding because you had not actually passed a NSL sign.
I really don't think you need to pass a gantry sign showing NSL for the lower limit to have ceased.From the relevant regulations:
2.-(1) ' “speed limit sign” means a traffic sign for indicating that a specified maximum speed limit other than the national speed limit is in force.'
and..
4.—(1) Subject to paragraphs (4) and (5) below, where a motor vehicle being driven on any part of the relevant roads on any occasion passes a speed limit sign (“the sign in question”) no person shall, during the relevant period, drive the vehicle on any part of the relevant roads at a speed exceeding the relevant speed.
My take is that an overhead [variable speed limit] gantry sign does not cease to be a speed limit sign simply because it is not showing a speed limit.
As such, if you drive beyond a gantry speed limit sign showing no variable limit then, by definition, the normal motorway speed limits become the applicable 'relevant speed'.
Edited by SS2. on Thursday 31st December 19:59
SS2. said:
I really don't think you need to pass a gantry sign showing NSL for the lower limit to have ceased.
From the relevant regulations:
2.-(1) ' “speed limit sign” means a traffic sign for indicating that a specified maximum speed limit other than the national speed limit is in force.'
and..
4.—(1) Subject to paragraphs (4) and (5) below, where a motor vehicle being driven on any part of the relevant roads on any occasion passes a speed limit sign (“the sign in question”) no person shall, during the relevant period, drive the vehicle on any part of the relevant roads at a speed exceeding the relevant speed.
My take is that an overhead [variable speed limit] gantry sign does not cease to be a speed limit sign simply because it is not showing a speed limit.
As such, if you drive beyond a gantry speed limit sign showing no variable limit then, by definition, the normal motorway speed limits become the applicable 'relevant speed'.
I would like to agree with you, but I am not sure that it would be correct to argue that a blank sign was a sign indicating that the national speed limit applied when there is a specific sign for that. If that were correct, why would the overhead gantries sometimes (when the operator remembers?) display the NSL sign at the end of a reduced speed section? From the relevant regulations:
2.-(1) ' “speed limit sign” means a traffic sign for indicating that a specified maximum speed limit other than the national speed limit is in force.'
and..
4.—(1) Subject to paragraphs (4) and (5) below, where a motor vehicle being driven on any part of the relevant roads on any occasion passes a speed limit sign (“the sign in question”) no person shall, during the relevant period, drive the vehicle on any part of the relevant roads at a speed exceeding the relevant speed.
My take is that an overhead [variable speed limit] gantry sign does not cease to be a speed limit sign simply because it is not showing a speed limit.
As such, if you drive beyond a gantry speed limit sign showing no variable limit then, by definition, the normal motorway speed limits become the applicable 'relevant speed'.
Edited by SS2. on Thursday 31st December 19:59
barian said:
I would like to agree with you, but I am not sure that it would be correct to argue that a blank sign was a sign indicating that the national speed limit applied when there is a specific sign for that.
If the first speed limit sign at the entry point of the variable zone was blank, what message do you think this would convey ?Hackney said:
The M1 roadworks around Luton had a 50mph limit policed by average speed cameras.
Except there were no end of roadwork signs or back to NSL so you were left driving at 50 but wondering what the limit was.
The current roadworks between J11 & J12 are clearly signed as "variable speed limit ends" and 50 at the beginning, however at the end they simply state "variable speed limit applies". There was a large NSL sign added for a couple of weeks, then taken away again - I guess it kind of conflicted with the overhead gantry 10 yards further on when a limit was applied there. It's taken a few months for people to start accelerating consistently at the end of these roadworks, due to the ambiguous signage, although it's improved now.Except there were no end of roadwork signs or back to NSL so you were left driving at 50 but wondering what the limit was.
I've regularly seen the situation the OP mentions - reduced limit on a series of gantries then nothing for miles - and I believe this is also ambiguous, but I now just treat blank gantries as NSL (surely the computer could remove the ambiguity?!)
You'll love the new variable signs on the M1 north of J36. Not over every lane, just on one of those new mini gantries over lane 1.
Dare I suggest this doesn't give you a legal obligation to obey it if you're in lanes 2, 3 or 4?
No, thought not.
This is going to catch some unfortunates in lane 2, passing a wall of tall trucks in lane 1, thus being unable to see the sign.
Dare I suggest this doesn't give you a legal obligation to obey it if you're in lanes 2, 3 or 4?
No, thought not.
This is going to catch some unfortunates in lane 2, passing a wall of tall trucks in lane 1, thus being unable to see the sign.
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