996R

[Richie200]

I'm currently in the process of building an extreme 996 which has now somehow morphed into a pretty blunt obsession in combining the key attributes of anorexia with the propulsion traits of Usain Bolt. I am now in a little quandary as to how best to approach the Usain Bolt part of the equation.
The car is a early 996 with cable throttle. I have already fitted all the obvious power enhancing mods (CAI, BMC filter, 200Cell cats, SSK and shortly a Titanium exhaust and LWFW/clutch).
I have read the GT3 throttle and IPD plenum with a remap can produce considerable gains. Does anyone know if the GT3 throttle is compatible with the OEM Carrera cable throttle setup of the early 996.1? If so where is advisable for a remap/ECU upgrade?
If I'm heading off in the wrong direction and you know of a better alternative route to achieve power gains, I'm all ears
Kind regards

[g7jhp]

Surely swapping the standard sports seats for some lightweight buckets would be worthwhile?

[Richie200]

g7jhp said:

Surely swapping the standard sports seats for some lightweight buckets would be worthwhile?

Sorry already taken care of fellow I have the following aspects of the project already resolved:

List of components planned
-LWFW
-Trick clutch for LWFW (already bought this)
-Titanium exhaust
-Lexan windows Done
-Carbon Roof Done
-Carbon Buckets
-Lightweight Battery Done
-Carbon bonnet
-Carbon Ducktail RPM or equivalent
-Carbon doors
-CUP steering wheel
-Lightweight alloys
-Lightweight brakes
-Dash delete and Misc trim panels Done
-New coilover suspension (Probably Bilstein)
-Design PAS delete system Done

Phase 1:
Strip and Calculate scope of project (retain OEM feel/quality/look) -60kg Done

Phase 2:
CABIN 1: Sunroof delete, Carbon roof, Lexan windows, Lightweight Battery, rewire cabin to suit -40kg Done

Phase 3:
ENGINE: LWFW, Clutch, Ti Exhaust, A/C delete, Engine bay lining delete -30kg (7kg unsprung weight)

Phase 4:
CABIN 2: Carbon seats, Cup Steering wheel -34kg

Phase 5:
BODY: Carbon bonnet/Engine cover/Doors -36kg

Phase 6:
HANDLING: Lightweight alloys lightweight brakes, Bilstein Suspension -20kg (all of which unsprung)

Total: ~220kg retaining all trim panels, carpets, and 4 seats.

So my questions in original post only relate to the performance side of things as all other areas are now sorted

[v8ksn]

Richie200 said:

I'm currently in the process of building an extreme 996 which has now somehow morphed into a pretty blunt obsession in combining the key attributes of anorexia with the propulsion traits of Usain Bolt. I am now in a little quandary as to how best to approach the Usain Bolt part of the equation.
The car is a early 996 with cable throttle. I have already fitted all the obvious power enhancing mods (CAI, BMC filter, 200Cell cats, SSK and shortly a Titanium exhaust and LWFW/clutch).
I have read the GT3 throttle and IPD plenum with a remap can produce considerable gains. Does anyone know if the GT3 throttle is compatible with the OEM Carrera cable throttle setup of the early 996.1? If so where is advisable for a remap/ECU upgrade?
If I'm heading off in the wrong direction and you know of a better alternative route to achieve power gains, I'm all ears
Kind regards

Have you spoken to http://www.rpmtechnik.co.uk ?
They have build a 996 based car called the CSR, maybe worth giving them a shout to get their advice regarding power upgrades.

[v8ksn]

.... PS loving your work on the 996 (and your previous on the 997 GT3) really interested to see how this project turns out

[Richie200]

v8ksn said:

Have you spoken to http://www.rpmtechnik.co.uk ?
They have build a 996 based car called the CSR, maybe worth giving them a shout to get their advice regarding power upgrades.

Many thanks v8ksn, RPM only have the ECU remap out of the all the things I was interested in. The RPM CSR has many other upgraded parts fitted but I have these areas already covered, just the GT3 throttle with plenum combined with ECU map I was looking for info on. I'll have a chat with them about the ECU upgrade though

[Richie200]

To be honest J, having now gone through this process, 220kg is fairly straight forward. I have already removed 116kg and can remove another 125.6kg retaining, to all intents and purposes, all stock trim panels and 4 seat configuration. Basically the car will still look like it left the factory (no bare-metal racecar, still carpeted, all wiring looms remain...).

The 125.6kg (minimum) still to go is as follows:
LWFW -6kg
Seats -30kg (OEM front seat 23.7kg each vs 6.5kg Carbon bucket)
Alloys 17.4kg (possible another 1kg per tyre each)
Titanium exhaust -14kg
Engine cover -2kg
Carbon bonnet -9kg
CUP S.Wheel -1.6kg
Light brakes & Suspension approx. -5kg
Carbon wings -6kg
Carbon doors -30kg (Stock door fully assembled each 29.5kg vs bare carbon 5.6kg)

This will bring the total removed closer to 250kg. I have already calculated that if I really wanted to another 44kg on top of this could be removed by removing all carpets, rear seats, interior panels, unused wiring looms... So getting on for 300kg is possible if you really wanted to. Imagine that, a 1050kg 996
I'm hoping to bring mine down to around 1100kg with around 340bhp.

ETA: Just on your last point, that would mean a near identical power to weight ratio as a 997.2GT3:

1100kg @ 340bhp = 309.06BHP/Ton
1415kg @ 435bhp = 307.41BHP/Ton

Edited by Richie200 on Sunday 3rd January 10:38

[Mario149]

I suspect your gearing will be a bit shorter though too, so your actual acceleration performance will be better than the GT3's.

ETA: would love to do this. What is your estimated parts bill for the project?

[Steve Rance]

Rich. Behind the rear PU on the 6GT3 there is a large metal impact bracket - runs all the way across the back of the car. it has no structural significance but obviously offers some rear crash protection. It's likely that the 996C2 has the same set up. There's a decent chunk of weight saving there if you remove it. A few of the 996 GT3 owners that I know did the same. You may find that someone offers the same part in carbon if you wished to retain the same impact protection.

Lovely project and exactly what I would be looking to do if I hadn't gone for the 964. it's a good tight chassis and has decent weight saving advantages over the 993. If you are going to run a relatively stiff set up i'd make sure that you add some supplementary torsional stiffness. A front strut brace won't be enough. A full welded cage would be ideal but you run the risk of head injury if you don't wear a lid you will need a lot of foam padding in the passenger cell.

With the weight that you are aiming to run, you will definitely be taking a lot of trail into corners to maximise the braking advantages that the car will give you - so the diff set up is crucial. i'd go with a cup diff set up with as much pre load as you can live with. You could also look at fitting a motorsport abs unit but I'm not sure if a 996 cup unit will plug and play straight into a C2. This will open up a wider geo choice as the standard abs unit can inhibit handling once you add substantial front camber. A big decision is your choice of damping. Damping control and spring rate will define the whole character of the car. Modern damping control is a revelation compared to when the 996 was introduced - it's such a shame that there is an obsession with active systems when passive are so much better in their damping quality, feel and consistency.

For an overall guide i'd look at how the porsche club championship teams that run 996's are setting their cars up.

I think that the 964/993/996 are fantastic base cars for tuning like this. The market is still a little dumb to this. No torsion bars, coil overs all round, decent geometry, brakes and rigidity. This means that they can run modern bolt on tuning upgrades and they respond brilliantly to them. With cooking C2 964's and 993's commanding such high prices, the 996 is relatively speaking an absolute bargain and being lighter and stiffer than the others offers excellent potential. You will end up with a stunning car that will be quick and far more involving than anything modern - including the GT4.

Good luck

[Steve Rance]

This is interesting. Hopefully Neil can shed a little light on this one?

[monstro]

Richie200 said:

To be honest J, having now gone through this process, 220kg is fairly straight forward. I have already removed 116kg and can remove another 125.6kg retaining, to all intents and purposes, all stock trim panels and 4 seat configuration. Basically the car will still look like it left the factory (no bare-metal racecar, still carpeted, all wiring looms remain...).

The 125.6kg (minimum) still to go is as follows:
LWFW -6kg
Seats -30kg (OEM front seat 23.7kg each vs 6.5kg Carbon bucket)
Alloys 17.4kg (possible another 1kg per tyre each)
Titanium exhaust -14kg
Engine cover -2kg
Carbon bonnet -9kg
CUP S.Wheel -1.6kg
Light brakes & Suspension approx. -5kg
Carbon wings -6kg
Carbon doors -30kg (Stock door fully assembled each 29.5kg vs bare carbon 5.6kg)

This will bring the total removed closer to 250kg. I have already calculated that if I really wanted to another 44kg on top of this could be removed by removing all carpets, rear seats, interior panels, unused wiring looms... So getting on for 300kg is possible if you really wanted to. Imagine that, a 1050kg 996
I'm hoping to bring mine down to around 1100kg with around 340bhp.

ETA: Just on your last point, that would mean a near identical power to weight ratio as a 997.2GT3:

1100kg @ 340bhp = 309.06BHP/Ton
1415kg @ 435bhp = 307.41BHP/Ton

Edited by Richie200 on Sunday 3rd January 10:38

and lay off the pies fella, don't want ruin all your hard work........

[Richie200]

Mario149 said:

What is your estimated parts bill for the project?

-LWFW 1000
-Trick clutch for LWFW 450
-Titanium exhaust 2000
-Lexan windows 850
-Carbon Roof 1200
-Carbon Buckets 1600
-Lightweight Battery 100
-Carbon bonnet 1000
-Carbon Ducktail RPM or equivalent 1600
-Carbon doors 4000
-Carbon wings 2400
-CUP steering wheel 325
-Lightweight alloys 2500
-Lightweight brakes £££not sure
-Dash delete 130
-New coilover suspension (Probably Bilstein) 1500
-Design PAS delete system inc A/C delete 350

This lot comes in at around £21k. I already have 200Cell cats, BMC filter, SSK, CAI, Underdrive pulley (also Full Hartech rebuild but not required). So if you didn't have these then say add another £1k. You can buy a 996 for around £10k then spend around £22k on parts seems like incredible value for what you get. Even if you added in labour at say £8k (including complete strip, Alcantara re-trim, A/C and PAS delete, Roof cut out...) £40K for a 1100kg 996 with all these quality part fitted seems to me incredible value against say a GT3 equivalent at probably double this cost.

NOTE: There is no PAS delete available for the 996, I have designed my own and may look into production at a later stage.

[lemmingjames]

How heavy do you expect the steering to get if you do a PAS delete?

[Richie200]

lemmingjames said:

How heavy do you expect the steering to get if you do a PAS delete?

There is a video highlighting this (test drive) in the link from my first post

[Richie200]

Steve Rance said:

Rich. Behind the rear PU on the 6GT3 there is a large metal impact bracket - runs all the way across the back of the car. it has no structural significance but obviously offers some rear crash protection. It's likely that the 996C2 has the same set up. There's a decent chunk of weight saving there if you remove it. A few of the 996 GT3 owners that I know did the same. You may find that someone offers the same part in carbon if you wished to retain the same impact protection.

Lovely project and exactly what I would be looking to do if I hadn't gone for the 964. it's a good tight chassis and has decent weight saving advantages over the 993. If you are going to run a relatively stiff set up i'd make sure that you add some supplementary torsional stiffness. A front strut brace won't be enough. A full welded cage would be ideal but you run the risk of head injury if you don't wear a lid you will need a lot of foam padding in the passenger cell.

With the weight that you are aiming to run, you will definitely be taking a lot of trail into corners to maximise the braking advantages that the car will give you - so the diff set up is crucial. i'd go with a cup diff set up with as much pre load as you can live with. You could also look at fitting a motorsport abs unit but I'm not sure if a 996 cup unit will plug and play straight into a C2. This will open up a wider geo choice as the standard abs unit can inhibit handling once you add substantial front camber. A big decision is your choice of damping. Damping control and spring rate will define the whole character of the car. Modern damping control is a revelation compared to when the 996 was introduced - it's such a shame that there is an obsession with active systems when passive are so much better in their damping quality, feel and consistency.

For an overall guide i'd look at how the porsche club championship teams that run 996's are setting their cars up.

I think that the 964/993/996 are fantastic base cars for tuning like this. The market is still a little dumb to this. No torsion bars, coil overs all round, decent geometry, brakes and rigidity. This means that they can run modern bolt on tuning upgrades and they respond brilliantly to them. With cooking C2 964's and 993's commanding such high prices, the 996 is relatively speaking an absolute bargain and being lighter and stiffer than the others offers excellent potential. You will end up with a stunning car that will be quick and far more involving than anything modern - including the GT4.

Good luck

Good speaking to you today Steve, we are very lucky to have your good self here with all the experience and knowledge you pass on

In the link above you will see the front and rear impact bars were one of the first components I removed (3.1 and 3.8kg respectively).
Suspension, braking, chassis dynamics isn't really an area I have looked too heavily into at present. So far I've only really concentrated on getting the car on a serious diet whilst simultaneously trying to keep it a nice place to be.
With 250kg going I was thinking that a suspension kit designed for a stock C2 might be a bit strongly sprung now as it is designed to deal with so much more weight. Once it is down to 1100kg I'll be in a position to start thinking a little more seriously about all the dynamic components.
Once again, many thanks for taking your time with all this

[Pat Cash]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

If you're tinkering in these areas, just make sure that it doesn't also inhibit the Electronic Brakeforce Distribution sub routine within the ABS programme(The modern day equivalent of the brake proportioning valve, that balances brakeforce front to rear based on braking capability of each tyre/axle under load transfer).

I once had a very interesting experience braking from 240kph in a Scirocco R Cup car, with an ABS system that had failed. The resulting lack of EBD caused maximum brakeforce to rears, locking them instantly as I hit the pedal and pitching the car into spin.

Luckily on cold slicks with such momentum, it carried on in a straight line and the only thing heavily damaged was my underwear.

[Mario149]

Richie200 said:

Mario149 said:

What is your estimated parts bill for the project?

-LWFW 1000
-Trick clutch for LWFW 450
-Titanium exhaust 2000
-Lexan windows 850
-Carbon Roof 1200
-Carbon Buckets 1600
-Lightweight Battery 100
-Carbon bonnet 1000
-Carbon Ducktail RPM or equivalent 1600
-Carbon doors 4000
-Carbon wings 2400
-CUP steering wheel 325
-Lightweight alloys 2500
-Lightweight brakes £££not sure
-Dash delete 130
-New coilover suspension (Probably Bilstein) 1500
-Design PAS delete system inc A/C delete 350

This lot comes in at around £21k. I already have 200Cell cats, BMC filter, SSK, CAI, Underdrive pulley (also Full Hartech rebuild but not required). So if you didn't have these then say add another £1k. You can buy a 996 for around £10k then spend around £22k on parts seems like incredible value for what you get. Even if you added in labour at say £8k (including complete strip, Alcantara re-trim, A/C and PAS delete, Roof cut out...) £40K for a 1100kg 996 with all these quality part fitted seems to me incredible value against say a GT3 equivalent at probably double this cost.

NOTE: There is no PAS delete available for the 996, I have designed my own and may look into production at a later stage.

Lovely, thanks for the info! From your post earlier, it looks like 130kg of stuff can be taken out quite easily without resorting to the more costly stuff

Would you be able to clarify what was changed/removed in your phase 1 work? I've read your thread on 911uk, but it'd be nice to have it specified exactly here in detail like the other phases

[dom9]

Just stopping by to say I'm loving your work over on 911 UK.

I built a track day 996 with Autofarm (documented on here) a few years ago and then moved abroad. My list of future modifications reflected a lot of what you're doing so I am following with interest. Sadly I sold the car after 3 years or so in storage

[fioran0]

Had some reasonable success disabling the ABS used on the 996 by fitting a switch between the brake pedal switch and the ABS unit.
This allowed the signal from the pedal to the ABS unit to be interrupted preventing ABS from activating. The brake switch itself feeds a positive voltage signal to multiple systems on the car in both switch and un-switched state hence the failure modes when the switch is faulty. It's not a simpler ground switching setup.

It seemed to work ok but testing wasn't exhaustive. It was there for the times one wants ABS off as things get tricky (i.e. a spin when ABS then lets you roll around rather than letting you lock the wheels).
The EBD system "should" remain active even with an ABS failure mode according to the systems info for the ABS but I didn't test it to confirm it offered full performance.

On the 997, things are a bit more complex as a result of the higher level of systems integration. PSM for example wants a feed with both brake switch open and closed. Lifting the signal creates a fault as it sees one signal drop and the other fail to replace it. There are so many things running from the ABS/PSM systems by this model that knock on impact is inevitable. The systems are far more proactive from now on meaning that even having ABS off negatively impacts braking (in deceleration terms, not in safety/skid prevention terms).

[Richie200]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Seat weight saving was an approximation as with the OEM seats at 23.7kgx2=47.4kg. I was hoping that the 6.5kgx2=13kg Carbon buckets would only need around 2-3kg each for mounts etc which would equate to the minus 30kgs.
Sorry J, no weigh-bridge data at the start but in the link above I have weighed and documented every parts that has been removed and also other parts have been weighed whilst I was in the vicinity to give others this info just in-case they want to remove other parts.