Should I sell my 993 C2 Cab to make a 996R?
Discussion
Richie200 on here is building a "996R" - if you've not been following the thread it's basically keeping a 996.1 C2 Coupe looking as standard as possible while taking out ~220kg and gaining about 30bhp to achieve roughly 305bhp/tonne and a focused but road friendly driving experience much in the spirit of a 964RS it seems.
I'd love to do the same thing as ever since I sold my 7GT3 a few months ago I've had a craving for a reasonably focused 911 that I could track but that wasn't frustrating on the road like the GT3 was. I wouldn't go as far as Richie200 would, but I reckon for the price of a 996.1 C2 and £10K (call it £22K all in) I could end up with -120kg and +20bhp or so with some trick PSS10s etc which wouldn't be too shabby. Funnily enough, that's prob of the order of what my 993 is worth, actually prob less so I might have cash left over. Now I love the 993, but it doesn't get used much in winter, and since I have the BGTS I already have the convertible so there's some unnecessary overlap.
Conversely, the in the last 3 years I've ploughed a lot of money into the 993 to make it how I like it and it does have all new Koni FSDs, top mounts etc etc so drives fab and is quite handy on track already while still being dead comfy on the road. I also already have a dedicated track car in the form of a Caterham. So strictly both road and track fun are already covered.
What would you do?
I'd love to do the same thing as ever since I sold my 7GT3 a few months ago I've had a craving for a reasonably focused 911 that I could track but that wasn't frustrating on the road like the GT3 was. I wouldn't go as far as Richie200 would, but I reckon for the price of a 996.1 C2 and £10K (call it £22K all in) I could end up with -120kg and +20bhp or so with some trick PSS10s etc which wouldn't be too shabby. Funnily enough, that's prob of the order of what my 993 is worth, actually prob less so I might have cash left over. Now I love the 993, but it doesn't get used much in winter, and since I have the BGTS I already have the convertible so there's some unnecessary overlap.
Conversely, the in the last 3 years I've ploughed a lot of money into the 993 to make it how I like it and it does have all new Koni FSDs, top mounts etc etc so drives fab and is quite handy on track already while still being dead comfy on the road. I also already have a dedicated track car in the form of a Caterham. So strictly both road and track fun are already covered.
What would you do?
Mario149 said:
You've run out of space for your 996R and want to give it to me to look after? 
Very good Mario 
You're not actually that far off the mark though to be honest.
I am currently working on this project with the sole aim 'to produce the most complete driver focused and involving 911 experience known to man' and to be able to share that experience with others
There are so many areas of the project that haven't really been done by anybody in the past, so many of the problems I am facing, need to be self-resolved. Once I have all the design and research done, I aim to offer these conversions to like-minded individuals on a pretty much non-profit basis.
I have 'Singer' as inspiration, but for mere mortals like myself, the £400K or whatever they cost, is just never going to happen. I am still in the early stages and must sell the GT3 before I can produce/source/buy the remaining parts, but am now making serious inroads into having all the bespoke parts made for me. The company will be called 'Carrera Lightweight Racing' or CLR for short and I have the following in mind:
-LWFW (AASCO) + CLR Gearbox modification
-ZF Performance Stage 2 clutch cover
-ZF Performance Stage 2 clutch plate
-OEM Porsche Release bearing
-CLR Titanium exhaust
-CLR 200 cell cats
-BMC filter+ CLR CAI Modification
-Lexan windows (Rear sides+Rear screen) Hardcoat treated scratch resistant
-CLR Carbon Roof
-CLR Alcantara Material
-CLR Carbon Buckets
-Seat mounts
-Lightweight Race Battery
-CLR Carbon wings
-CLR Carbon bonnet
-CLR Carbon Ducktail
-CLR Carbon doors
-OEM Porsche CUP steering wheel
-Lightweight alloys Oz Alleggerita HLT
-OEM Porsche Dash delete and Misc trim panels
-Ohlins Coilover suspension Custom CLR Vavle/spring rate developed at the Ohlins test facility
-CLR PAS+AC System conversion
-Underdrive pulley Kit (inc engine mod)
-Wiper delete
-OEM Porsche Dash blanking switch set
-OEM Porsche 997 Short Shift Kit
-CLR Carbon Strut brace front+rear
-RSS Engine mounts
-CLR Complete bespoke Strip/Trim (Alcantara any colour)
-Custom build file and engrave plate
-Installation/test/set-up of all parts
-Misc: Workshop/materials/tools/Oil/Tape/Glue/lubricants/window removal…
-Excluding: Paint/Tyres/Windscreen replacement/OEM head-lining/Top mounts (as they are customer specific)
For me it is critical that only the highest quality parts are used (OEM Porsche, Ohlins, RSS, Titanium exhaust etc) and that test/development stages are the key objectives in creating the CLR. My early calculations are, I could offer the above for about £27K (€36.5Keuro), this includes all business operating costs (hopefully) but like I said will be done on a near charity basis. If you tally up the parts above then add in insurances, workshop, taxes, tax declaration, medical insurance cover, legal fees etc you will see there is no money in it (never mind the 3months labour). I have not accurately calculated the timescale for a conversion yet, but hope, working on a car full time, should enable a 2-3months turn-around. This will mean the 996/997 CLR, including the donor (996 or 997), will be around 50% of the cost of a GT3.
This little lot above should translate to a 200-230kg reduction and truly magical drive
Edited by Richie200 on Tuesday 26th January 18:32
Good question, everything I do will be TUV approved. This is an expensive process to do over here, a bit like a SVA in the UK but for my car I will probably be looking at a £8-10K bill for the TUV. I have no option though, as my car is first and foremost a road car and one of the main points of this project is to retain OEM feel, finish and ride comfort. It should deliver 7.2GT3 straight-line performance but with the delicacy and poise only an 1100kg lightweight can offer in braking, turn-in, weight-transfer...
Can't wait to get the first prototype finished
I will be having the CF panels made locally and all parts will be Part numbered and meet TUV approval standards.
Can't wait to get the first prototype finished
I will be having the CF panels made locally and all parts will be Part numbered and meet TUV approval standards.
If you need someone to give a few months of unbiased testing, I'm happy to live in the garage and drive Nurburg to Malmedy and back every day on the back-roads.
Perhaps we can also work on a few lightweight parts for the 993/964.... doors, bonnet and engine-lid for starters.
Does May to September work for you?
Perhaps we can also work on a few lightweight parts for the 993/964.... doors, bonnet and engine-lid for starters.
Does May to September work for you?
Richie200 said:
I have 'Singer' as inspiration, but for mere mortals like myself, the £400K or whatever they cost, is just never going to happen. I am still in the early stages and must sell the GT3 before I can produce/source/buy the remaining parts, but am now making serious inroads into having all the bespoke parts made for me. The company will be called 'Carrera Lightweight Racing' or CLR for short and I have the following in mind:
This sounds really interesting, I could be interested in a bonnet, maybe some wings. How about carbon wing mirrors? A carbon rear lid that takes the standard retractable spoiler and fan gear? Carbon wheel arch liners? Ok, probably not the wheel arch liners..Richie200 said:
There are so many areas of the project that haven't really been done by anybody in the past, so many of the problems I am facing, need to be self-resolved.
With all due respect to your project - and FWIW I very much enjoy that you are doing it - I couldnt see anything on your list that hasn't been already done to 996's over the years.I appreciate that you are setting up a business model here and there needs to be an element of self promotion involved, however being alone on a path is not the same as being the first on a path.
Many folks from the earlier days moved on from their 996s to 997s and then off to other things, taking with them a wealth of knowledge, experiences, ideas and solutions.
I know when I got into Porsche with the 996 there was a huge amount of lessons and info to be had from many clever and helpful people doing exciting things. Their time and support was an incredible gift and I know I was not the only one to benefit back in those days.
The scene may now be cold, and I think it is great that you are breathing some warmth back into it, but it would be remiss of me to not mention that there very much was a scene given the context.
Yes, go for it Old Chap. It will be a lovely thing. Nothing like a big GT car on the track - and I'm speaking as a man who started racing in Caterhams ( with a very soft spot for them).
Ask Richard very nicely to build you one.
Yhe air cooled RS reps are all well and good ( I have one myself) but a 996r will be truly unique as it will not be a GT3 copy.
Ask Richard very nicely to build you one.
Yhe air cooled RS reps are all well and good ( I have one myself) but a 996r will be truly unique as it will not be a GT3 copy.
Orangecurry said:
If you need someone to give a few months of unbiased testing, I'm happy to live in the garage and drive Nurburg to Malmedy and back every day on the back-roads.
Perhaps we can also work on a few lightweight parts for the 993/964.... doors, bonnet and engine-lid for starters.
Does May to September work for you?
That is a very kind offer OC, I'll bear it in mind Perhaps we can also work on a few lightweight parts for the 993/964.... doors, bonnet and engine-lid for starters.
Does May to September work for you?
IknowJoseph said:
This sounds really interesting, I could be interested in a bonnet, maybe some wings. How about carbon wing mirrors? A carbon rear lid that takes the standard retractable spoiler and fan gear? Carbon wheel arch liners? Ok, probably not the wheel arch liners..
Wings/bonnet already in the process of being sorted. Arch liners were never a consideration as there is no weight in the stock items and just seems an expensive waste of time to me. The ducktail I am having made will have provision for all stock fan, air-inlet etc. I've not considered wing mirrors just yet as I have enough on my plate at present and I can't see them being very effective from a cost:weight reduction perspective. fioran0 said:
With all due respect to your project - and FWIW I very much enjoy that you are doing it - I couldn't see anything on your list that hasn't been already done to 996's over the years.
I appreciate that you are setting up a business model here and there needs to be an element of self promotion involved, however being alone on a path is not the same as being the first on a path.
Many folks from the earlier days moved on from their 996s to 997s and then off to other things, taking with them a wealth of knowledge, experiences, ideas and solutions.
I know when I got into Porsche with the 996 there was a huge amount of lessons and info to be had from many clever and helpful people doing exciting things. Their time and support was an incredible gift and I know I was not the only one to benefit back in those days.
The scene may now be cold, and I think it is great that you are breathing some warmth back into it, but it would be remiss of me to not mention that there very much was a scene given the context.
Hi Neil, this isn't a business in the true sense of the word as these cars will be produced for no profit. I probably only have the capacity to build about 50 or so cars over the next 10 years. I appreciate that you are setting up a business model here and there needs to be an element of self promotion involved, however being alone on a path is not the same as being the first on a path.
Many folks from the earlier days moved on from their 996s to 997s and then off to other things, taking with them a wealth of knowledge, experiences, ideas and solutions.
I know when I got into Porsche with the 996 there was a huge amount of lessons and info to be had from many clever and helpful people doing exciting things. Their time and support was an incredible gift and I know I was not the only one to benefit back in those days.
The scene may now be cold, and I think it is great that you are breathing some warmth back into it, but it would be remiss of me to not mention that there very much was a scene given the context.
I believe the 996 to be the best 911 Porsche have made to date and using a base Carrera as the blank canvas should yield incredible results. Before making inroads into the various sections of the build I have obviously done my homework. Your point about there being no USP is not quite correct as far as I am aware. For example, when I looked into the PAS delete, I spoke to Parr Motorsport and the only thing on the market getting close to what I wanted was a CUP type steering pump (Hydraulic/electric) the same as I have in my 7.1RS. For me, this was still a compromise on what I want to achieve, so I had no option but to develop my own PAS conversion. I'm pretty certain that my 996 is the only one in the world that has completely removed the PAS system. Also I think the point you are trying to make is that many have been stripped and played with; and of course I agree. The difference here is I don't want a stripped out race-car with some bolt on mods. I have very delicately, in methodical stages, removed bits, added bits and slowly tried to find the best compromise; essentially trying to get a perfect balance of comfort/OEM trim level, combined with a ruthless pursuit in delivering unrivalled feedback and performance. Simply stripping the car and bolting on a few bits isn't what this project is about. I mention the PAS system above as a one-off, as another example the headlining is removed so the panel on the roof for the interior lighting no longer fits. So I had to fabricate my own panel to ensure the finish is becoming of the overall package. Nobody has done this and nobody will copy or offer this service as the cost of development will not yield a return. I am not doing this to make money. The hours and cost spent in development so far, plus the £10K or so the TUV will cost I will never see back. I just have a vision and idea that I feel designing/creating will offer me personally, far greater rewards that the money ever would. Just consider for a second what 2-3months labour would cost at a specialist outfit. That alone would come to more that the cost of these conversions, let alone the £22,000+ the parts will come in at. Then all the Start-up overheads and operating costs (especially in Germany). Realistically labour at only £80/hr inc VAT would come in at £13,760 per month (172hrs/month) so £28-41K for the 2-3months each car will take to build. I am also a licenced Aircraft Engineer by trade so the tolerances and workmanship that I work with are on a differing scale to those associated in the automotive industry.
Please don't take the above the wrong way, I really do not intend to be rude in answering your question
I am still probably 6-8months away from having the first prototype completed to be able to show in person what I mean. In the mean-time I am enjoying the journey and really hope I will be able to share this experience with others...
Steve Rance said:
Ask Richard very nicely to build you one.
The air cooled RS reps are all well and good ( I have one myself) but a 996r will be truly unique as it will not be a GT3 copy.
Thank you Steve The air cooled RS reps are all well and good ( I have one myself) but a 996r will be truly unique as it will not be a GT3 copy.
Richie,
My post was purely to make a mention of the folks that have been and gone from the 996 days. It was once incredibly vibrant; and folks were pushing their cars in all sorts of interesting directions on both road and track.
I like that you are breathing life into the 996, and in the process perhaps causing people to re-evaluate an often maligned car. I hope it goes well for you. The 996 is my favourite Porsche by a long way.
As I said, being on a path alone is not the same as being the first on that path. I've seen and driven a bunch of cars with full PAS delete for example. Most folks looped the lines at the front end, others opened the rack and reassembled with grease and an open internal circuit. There seemed little difference in response between the two tbh, but one was much simpler. There was a huge cottage industry in the US with folks banging away on their cars with all sorts of stuff, while the UK and Europe mainly (though not entirely, I know some who were fully engaged are on here) were oblivious. By the time I came to Porsche and the 996, there was little to discover, only lots to learn. Thankfully people were happy to talk and shoot the breeze.
As a side note of interest, with no 996 shells available for some years from Porsche Motorsport, the default shell of choice for reshelling damaged race cars (Cup, R, RSR) has been the 996 C2.
My post was purely to make a mention of the folks that have been and gone from the 996 days. It was once incredibly vibrant; and folks were pushing their cars in all sorts of interesting directions on both road and track.
I like that you are breathing life into the 996, and in the process perhaps causing people to re-evaluate an often maligned car. I hope it goes well for you. The 996 is my favourite Porsche by a long way.
As I said, being on a path alone is not the same as being the first on that path. I've seen and driven a bunch of cars with full PAS delete for example. Most folks looped the lines at the front end, others opened the rack and reassembled with grease and an open internal circuit. There seemed little difference in response between the two tbh, but one was much simpler. There was a huge cottage industry in the US with folks banging away on their cars with all sorts of stuff, while the UK and Europe mainly (though not entirely, I know some who were fully engaged are on here) were oblivious. By the time I came to Porsche and the 996, there was little to discover, only lots to learn. Thankfully people were happy to talk and shoot the breeze.
As a side note of interest, with no 996 shells available for some years from Porsche Motorsport, the default shell of choice for reshelling damaged race cars (Cup, R, RSR) has been the 996 C2.
fioran0 said:
Richie,
My post was purely to make a mention of the folks that have been and gone from the 996 days. It was once incredibly vibrant; and folks were pushing their cars in all sorts of interesting directions on both road and track.
I like that you are breathing life into the 996, and in the process perhaps causing people to re-evaluate an often maligned car. I hope it goes well for you. The 996 is my favourite Porsche by a long way.
As I said, being on a path alone is not the same as being the first on that path. I've seen and driven a bunch of cars with full PAS delete for example. Most folks looped the lines at the front end, others opened the rack and reassembled with grease and an open internal circuit. There seemed little difference in response between the two tbh, but one was much simpler. There was a huge cottage industry in the US with folks banging away on their cars with all sorts of stuff, while the UK and Europe mainly (though not entirely, I know some who were fully engaged are on here) were oblivious. By the time I came to Porsche and the 996, there was little to discover, only lots to learn. Thankfully people were happy to talk and shoot the breeze.
As a side note of interest, with no 996 shells available for some years from Porsche Motorsport, the default shell of choice for reshelling damaged race cars (Cup, R, RSR) has been the 996 C2.
Many thanks for this insightful info Neil, my search has been Euro-centric and I wasn't aware of these cars in the States. However it would seem from your response that these were individual solutions to race/track based cars I guess. By that I mean there has been nothing marketed and available to the masses on the shelf? So this is probably why nothing came up whilst I looked for a solution (to the 996 PAS issue). Either way I have designed and manufactured all the necessary hardware now so getting these produced is now a viable option going forward. Would just need to remove the parts from my car and have them CNC machined in batches rather that just the one-off which is currently fitted to my car.My post was purely to make a mention of the folks that have been and gone from the 996 days. It was once incredibly vibrant; and folks were pushing their cars in all sorts of interesting directions on both road and track.
I like that you are breathing life into the 996, and in the process perhaps causing people to re-evaluate an often maligned car. I hope it goes well for you. The 996 is my favourite Porsche by a long way.
As I said, being on a path alone is not the same as being the first on that path. I've seen and driven a bunch of cars with full PAS delete for example. Most folks looped the lines at the front end, others opened the rack and reassembled with grease and an open internal circuit. There seemed little difference in response between the two tbh, but one was much simpler. There was a huge cottage industry in the US with folks banging away on their cars with all sorts of stuff, while the UK and Europe mainly (though not entirely, I know some who were fully engaged are on here) were oblivious. By the time I came to Porsche and the 996, there was little to discover, only lots to learn. Thankfully people were happy to talk and shoot the breeze.
As a side note of interest, with no 996 shells available for some years from Porsche Motorsport, the default shell of choice for reshelling damaged race cars (Cup, R, RSR) has been the 996 C2.
Mario149 said:
Okay, MASSIVE spanner in the works 
I drove my 993 to work yesterday and reeeeeally enjoyed it. Not sure I could part with it just yet Might have to keep it and do a 996R after all our house moving faff is completed :P
You can't drive a house Mario I drove my 993 to work yesterday and reeeeeally enjoyed it. Not sure I could part with it just yet Might have to keep it and do a 996R after all our house moving faff is completed :PGood luck with whatever you choose to do Mario, you know where I am if you need to run anything by me regarding the 996R
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