Future of the Vanquish when the DB11 is launched?

[IanV12VR]

It sounds like the DB11 will out do the current flagship model, Vanquish, so what will happen to that until it is replaced in ?? How will AML keep sales of the Vanquish going? More power from the existing engine, take weight out or special editions?

What do you think - or does it just fall into the shadows until it is replaced?

[Jon39]

Would you like to take that one Dr.Palmer?

[hashluck]

Watching this with interest. (Actually watching used Vanquish values more, seems there are plenty around)

[FrankieBee]

I asked this exact question at Gaydon yesterday. Their answer was that there will always be those that will buy our range topping car. Plus it's built differently I.e. Carbon Fibre vs Aluminium.

Wasn't a convincing argument

[IanV12VR]

FrankieBee said:

I asked this exact question at Gaydon yesterday. Their answer was that there will always be those that will buy our range topping car. Plus it's built differently I.e. Carbon Fibre vs Aluminium.

Wasn't a convincing argument

If that is the case they must be fairly small in number which raises the question as to whether it is worth continuing with production.

I have been told they could get 600bhp out of existing engine and that there will be some very expensive limited editions which they hope will see it through until the replacement comes on stream. To my thinking, that would do little to give a performance differential needed so that is why I think they will need to also take some serious weight out of the car as well.

[Grumpydev]

It's going to be especially interesting when we see what the tuners can do with the new FI engines.

[Jon39]

IanV12VR said:

I have been told they could get 600bhp out of existing engine ...
... I think they will need to also take some serious weight out of the car as well.

and I have to try very hard not to be put behind bars, with 'only' 420 bhp.

Is the world going mad?

[IanV12VR]

Jon39 said:

and I have to try very hard not to be put behind bars, with 'only' 420 bhp.

Is the world going mad?

Agree but I guess you just need to look at the performance levels of the competition. I am more into the noise and experience that the cars produce rather than outright speed. If you look at the number of Aston owners who are now in McLarens you can see where quite a few move to. I have looked at them, especially given no local AML dealership, and they are very impressive but would I use a quarter of the performance???????

[JohnG1]

IanV12VR said:

FrankieBee said:

I asked this exact question at Gaydon yesterday. Their answer was that there will always be those that will buy our range topping car. Plus it's built differently I.e. Carbon Fibre vs Aluminium.

Wasn't a convincing argument

If that is the case they must be fairly small in number which raises the question as to whether it is worth continuing with production.

I have been told they could get 600bhp out of existing engine and that there will be some very expensive limited editions which they hope will see it through until the replacement comes on stream. To my thinking, that would do little to give a performance differential needed so that is why I think they will need to also take some serious weight out of the car as well.

600bhp from the Bosch ECU (I think it's entitled AM28 by the factory) should be trivial. Just open the exhaust system up and do what Bamford Rose already do to the previous engine.

AML face the problem that the finance and performance gaps between the cars are a bit screwed up. This has been due to underinvestment - the original build Vanquish II (AM310) had a six speed gearbox so by gearing was limited to 186mph.

Until AML sharpen up their market segmentation through engineering and marketing they are up against it.

Taking weight out of Vanquish, well that's bloody tough. You can rip out the sound deadening but then you lose on NVH. It's all aluminium and carbon fibre so not much you can do. Replace aluminium with magnesium alloy? Forged suspension components? Rip out stereo, Bluetooth, air con and so on? Then it's neither fish nor fowl.

We have seen AML have trouble with Vanquish I to DBS transition and then DBS to Vanquish II. Same old story...

[jonby]

Getting another 20-30bhp out of Vanquish isn't going to make a huge difference to the car's performance or sales of vanquish - DB11 immediately makes vanquish look old hat

One has to assume that like all the models in the range, vanquish won't get the new interior/electronic architecture of DB11 until vanquish replacement arrives

so IMO, the only way vanquish sales will survive until its replacement are if say in a year or so (after he initial flurry of DB11 sales dies down a little), they put an upgraded version of the new V12 TT into vanquish - one assumes there is plenty of scope for more power out of that unit. However for as long as DB11 sales are strong (which could be anything from 12 months to 30 months after launch), should the factory worry about vanquish sales ? It's total sales that count, not individual model sales

[Jon39]

IanV12VR said:

Agree but I guess you just need to look at the performance levels of the competition.

... very impressive but would I use a quarter of the performance???????

I think we are at one Ian, on the issue of more and more power.

Yes, it clearly does lead to sales, but quite funny when you take a step back, to think about the practical road use in this country.

One can imagine a dinner party conversation.
"My new sports car has 800 bhp, and can accelerate to 60 mph in under 3 seconds."

Those statements never seem to continue;
"I know that I only used 50 bhp when I drove to the shops today, but it is always reassuring to know that have 750 bhp spare, just in case I need some extra power."

Edited by Jon39 on Saturday 20th February 13:22

[8Tech]

I think that there will easily be 800bhp potential from the 5.2 V12 turbo so I assume it is detuned for the DB11 but will slip into the new Vanquish with more power.
Aston Martin can then easily update the engine in both models as the car evolves with a simple remap.
200bhp per litre is reliably achievable now so don't be shocked when one of the aftermarket comes out with a 1000bhp special.

[roughrider]

All dependent on the high temperatures created under the bonnet, i would have thought. More boost equals

[JohnG1]

8Tech said:

I think that there will easily be 800bhp potential from the 5.2 V12 turbo so I assume it is detuned for the DB11 but will slip into the new Vanquish with more power.
Aston Martin can then easily update the engine in both models as the car evolves with a simple remap.
200bhp per litre is reliably achievable now so don't be shocked when one of the aftermarket comes out with a 1000bhp special.

Yes, but the gearbox may find all that unplanned for torque a little problematic.

Mercedes can get 360bhp from a two litre turbo and could therefore get 720bhp from their four litre V8. They don't. Since 720bhp an the associated torque would make the car undriveable by most.

The suspension in DB11 - if multi-link rather than wishbones sounds rather Mercedes too.

Hmm, is DB11 a reskinned AMG GT?

[SELON]

IanV12VR said:

Agree but I guess you just need to look at the performance levels of the competition. I am more into the noise and experience that the cars produce rather than outright speed. If you look at the number of Aston owners who are now in McLarens you can see where quite a few move to. I have looked at them, especially given no local AML dealership, and they are very impressive but would I use a quarter of the performance???????

That is a very sensible answer.

600bhp from a Vanquish might knock the top end up a little bit. But it's already a great car. The the 6-speed and 8-speed versions also sound fab. If the 8 speed Vanquish was a bit less pricey, I would've definitely gone for that, I think. Going 2 seater, the McLaren just won out for me over the V12S/V12, both are great cars but the McLaren just gave me a chance to try something different to experience for a while.

I, for one, will be back. Just waiting for a used DB11 (or maybe the Vantage replacement where I think they can be less conservative with the design changes - not that evolution isn't good) to come on the market

[SELON]

Jon39 said:

I think we are at one Ian, on the issue of more and more power.

Yes, it clearly does lead to sales, but quite funny when you take a step back, to think about the practical road use in this country.

One can imagine a dinner party conversation.
"My new sports car has 800 bhp, and can accelerate to 60 mph in under 3 seconds."

Those statements never seem to continue;
"I know that I only used 50 bhp when I drove to the shops today, but it is always reassuring to know that have 750 bhp spare, just in case I need some extra power."

Edited by Jon39 on Saturday 20th February 13:22

who hasn't said this at a dinner party

Or something like that...

Edited by SELON on Saturday 20th February 15:53

[old phart]

Relatively easy to up the HP. A bit more thought has to go into the suspension and transmission to handle it. Like Jay Leno says - all the fun is from 40 to 120.

[Jon39]

SELON said:

I, for one, will be back ... maybe the Vantage replacement where I think they can be less conservative with the design changes -

As many others do, I just adore the present Vantage shape. The entire design has reason, without any exaggerated details purely for show. Now, 13 years after the original announcement, it is still considered to be a great looking car, so I presume that it will still be admired in the future.

I agree with you Mike, that the replacement Vantage will have more visual changes, than we are anticipating with DB9 to DB11.

My reason for thinking that, is Andy Palmer has stated that he wants his mother to be able to differentiate each AML model. I don't know how expert Mrs. Palmer is with her car spotting, but with the present Vantage and DB9, most of us have to look quite closely before naming the model.

I wonder if perhaps the 2018 Vantage, might make the present car look an even more classic shape?

Edited by Jon39 on Saturday 20th February 16:32

[AWV12]

JohnG1 said:

Hmm, is DB11 a reskinned AMG GT?

Probably the new DB11 will be more a reskinned S 65 AMG coupe (in size, engine, transmission and electronics). Maybe the people who joined the preview clinics can confirm or deny?

The new V8 Vantage (named DB8 or DB10?) will have the 4.0 V8 engine (and maybe more.....) of the AMG GT and have some of the looks of the JB SPECTRE DB10.

Edited by AWV12 on Saturday 20th February 19:11

[Speedraser]

The DB11, happily, is NOT a re-skinned Benz. It has an evolutionary/new Aston-only structure, and the V12 is an evolution of the current V12. The coming AMG-derived V8 engine makes me nervous, since it's not yet known (to the public, anyway) whether it will be just an off-the-shelf AMG 4.0 -- in which case I'll have ZERO interest -- or whether it will be different enough to be credibly considered an Aston engine.

IMO, the Vantage, DB9 and DBS are among the best-looking cars ever made, and they still look gorgeous after all these years. The DB11 will hopefully look great, but it will be very difficult to be more beautiful and timeless than the current cars.