Which Kit Car? - Cosworth, Bike Engine, S2000, V8
Discussion
Hello all
First post in the kit car section! Just wanting to throw it out there to the audience for a chap looking to get in to the most extreme kit car (seven esq) for the money up to £10k
Iv been looking at the cosworth units, obviously the bike engine options, and the odd s2000 westfield. Is there any consensious for what suits the kit car chassis the best.
Coming from a TVR Tuscan, it needs to be faster to and even more mental. Have seen a few turbo'd bike engine kit cars but they seem ridiculous as the power can't be put down. Having also had a S2000 there is not enough (from my experience) enough power low down.
Can anyone throw out some guiding thoughts?
First post in the kit car section! Just wanting to throw it out there to the audience for a chap looking to get in to the most extreme kit car (seven esq) for the money up to £10k
Iv been looking at the cosworth units, obviously the bike engine options, and the odd s2000 westfield. Is there any consensious for what suits the kit car chassis the best.
Coming from a TVR Tuscan, it needs to be faster to and even more mental. Have seen a few turbo'd bike engine kit cars but they seem ridiculous as the power can't be put down. Having also had a S2000 there is not enough (from my experience) enough power low down.
Can anyone throw out some guiding thoughts?
The stock answer is join a local club, visit the manufacturers (if practical) and get as many rides and drives as you can.
See what you like best.
You'll get as many different opinions as posts on a thread like this - look for BEC v CEC on the forum, it's been done many times before!
As for the S2000 engine, you'll find a Westfield will weigh less than the Honda, so low down power may not be much of an issue.
If I were going to buy a Seven type car, I'd be looking for a fairly straightforward NA four cylinder, but it doesn't sound like that's what you are looking for.
I do occasionally get a slight hankering for a Westfield SEight, but then think better of it!
I also think an RX8 engine would be quite an option for a Seven style car - I guess somebody must have done that before?
See what you like best.
You'll get as many different opinions as posts on a thread like this - look for BEC v CEC on the forum, it's been done many times before!
As for the S2000 engine, you'll find a Westfield will weigh less than the Honda, so low down power may not be much of an issue.
If I were going to buy a Seven type car, I'd be looking for a fairly straightforward NA four cylinder, but it doesn't sound like that's what you are looking for.
I do occasionally get a slight hankering for a Westfield SEight, but then think better of it!
I also think an RX8 engine would be quite an option for a Seven style car - I guess somebody must have done that before?
To build or second hand ?
This will make a big difference as to what you can get for the £10k budget.
To build for £10k you will probably get a mx5/zetec or possibly duratec stock motor seven by the time it is on the road, second hand you may get something quite special.
this is interesting and has scope for more - Stiker is one of the best chassis of the seven type - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Raw-Striker-Toyota-4AGE-... (advert also on Pistonheads)
Also, don't discount the Fury/Phoenix - basically a full body seven, not that much heavier and the curved screen and full body help greatly at higher speeds.Again, with similar chassis to the Striker (all one family of cars designed by the same bloke), race winning and IMO one of the best.
Finally, it is not all about raw power int hese cars, handling and the ability to use every bit of power is just as important and more rewarding int he log run that putting down No.11's. Around 200hp in a 600kg is probably the sweet spot for fast road, and around 250hp for the track, again in my opinion, but a balance between engine, gear ratios, diff (LSD) and brakes in a light car is more important.
This will make a big difference as to what you can get for the £10k budget.
To build for £10k you will probably get a mx5/zetec or possibly duratec stock motor seven by the time it is on the road, second hand you may get something quite special.
this is interesting and has scope for more - Stiker is one of the best chassis of the seven type - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Raw-Striker-Toyota-4AGE-... (advert also on Pistonheads)
Also, don't discount the Fury/Phoenix - basically a full body seven, not that much heavier and the curved screen and full body help greatly at higher speeds.Again, with similar chassis to the Striker (all one family of cars designed by the same bloke), race winning and IMO one of the best.
Finally, it is not all about raw power int hese cars, handling and the ability to use every bit of power is just as important and more rewarding int he log run that putting down No.11's. Around 200hp in a 600kg is probably the sweet spot for fast road, and around 250hp for the track, again in my opinion, but a balance between engine, gear ratios, diff (LSD) and brakes in a light car is more important.
Edited by ugg10 on Monday 22 February 22:16
Edited by ugg10 on Monday 22 February 22:18
What do you want to do with it, mostly road driving or mostly track? Do you want a roof, heater or other comfy bits? I'd work out what you want from the car first, it'll at least limit the models that you are looking at.
My Mk Indy Fireblade was within your budge and is tons of fun, weighs 465kg, 160 BHP at the wheels and clutchless paddle shifter. Its loud, revs to nearly 12krpm, has more grip than I have nerve to break on the road. However I have no wind screen or roof, its tiny inside and rubbish in any sort of traffic. Personally I love it but I brought it for the track not driving on the road.
My Mk Indy Fireblade was within your budge and is tons of fun, weighs 465kg, 160 BHP at the wheels and clutchless paddle shifter. Its loud, revs to nearly 12krpm, has more grip than I have nerve to break on the road. However I have no wind screen or roof, its tiny inside and rubbish in any sort of traffic. Personally I love it but I brought it for the track not driving on the road.
That's exactly it - what do you want from the car, how are you (really) going to drive it, how do you (frankly) drive a car? Get a few goes in different approaches if you can - most owners are passionate and will give a passenger ride just for fun (I do!)
If you want to plant you foot and get response for no effort on your part, go for the biggest lump you can; if you want something you really have to work at to extract what it can do, feel a part of & be rewarded by, smaller engine/higher revs is the way to go, becasue the lower mass plays into the whole result quite noticably.
I looked at Sevens for 18months and bought - a bike-engined Fury. Six years later, the sheer exercise in utter minamalism, reward vs effort and total utter (often knackering) engagement - is one I won't swap for anything. Makes an Elise feel lardy... rewards like nothing I've driven; requires concentration and effort to do so. (car details in profile if interested.)
The truth is, these things are a personal choice, absolutely nothing at all to do with having the 'most extreme' (sic) a.k.a the fastest car in the pub. Buying cars in this general area and getting to enjoy the reult is ultimately about being brutally honest with yourself as to what you really want out of the toy. If the car you buy isn't 'it' close enough, you won't drive it: and then you'll resent it, and the whole relationship goes south from there (witness no end of pointless BEC vs CEC wars, with people missing the point on both sides.)
ETA:
Oh, and while much more than 300hp/tonne seems to be becoming a badge of honour in tiny cars, it is hard to actually exploit on-road to any useful effect (and some of the cars receiving such are s
t in the first place)
Big power, in and of itself is nothing. Just enough go, better overall build quality and Setup, setup, setup (and one's own practice in driving) is *much much* more worthwhile IMO. Keep your eyes wide open when looking to buy.
If you want to plant you foot and get response for no effort on your part, go for the biggest lump you can; if you want something you really have to work at to extract what it can do, feel a part of & be rewarded by, smaller engine/higher revs is the way to go, becasue the lower mass plays into the whole result quite noticably.
I looked at Sevens for 18months and bought - a bike-engined Fury. Six years later, the sheer exercise in utter minamalism, reward vs effort and total utter (often knackering) engagement - is one I won't swap for anything. Makes an Elise feel lardy... rewards like nothing I've driven; requires concentration and effort to do so. (car details in profile if interested.)
The truth is, these things are a personal choice, absolutely nothing at all to do with having the 'most extreme' (sic) a.k.a the fastest car in the pub. Buying cars in this general area and getting to enjoy the reult is ultimately about being brutally honest with yourself as to what you really want out of the toy. If the car you buy isn't 'it' close enough, you won't drive it: and then you'll resent it, and the whole relationship goes south from there (witness no end of pointless BEC vs CEC wars, with people missing the point on both sides.)
ETA:
Oh, and while much more than 300hp/tonne seems to be becoming a badge of honour in tiny cars, it is hard to actually exploit on-road to any useful effect (and some of the cars receiving such are s
t in the first place) Big power, in and of itself is nothing. Just enough go, better overall build quality and Setup, setup, setup (and one's own practice in driving) is *much much* more worthwhile IMO. Keep your eyes wide open when looking to buy.
Edited by Huff on Tuesday 23 February 21:15
Came on here to ask the same thing! Huff's post I think has just persuaded me, I think.
I've been after a Westy since October I think but not seen one I like or missed the ones I do. I was set on a seight but to be honest I think for my first toy car It might be a bit much money and those things seem to be going up. So ive been looking for either the 4 cylinder turbo ones or the Bike engine ones, anyways theres a blue Megablade with a 900cc for sale atm and I am really rather tempted to go buy it but the lack of a canopy, windscreen is my main concern, that said I would not plan on taking a car with R888's out in the wet soooo... I just have to decide if I want that sort of power delivery, unsure if it would be torture on a longer trip.
Going to look into maintaining the things over the next few days and see what insurance comes back as.
I've been after a Westy since October I think but not seen one I like or missed the ones I do. I was set on a seight but to be honest I think for my first toy car It might be a bit much money and those things seem to be going up. So ive been looking for either the 4 cylinder turbo ones or the Bike engine ones, anyways theres a blue Megablade with a 900cc for sale atm and I am really rather tempted to go buy it but the lack of a canopy, windscreen is my main concern, that said I would not plan on taking a car with R888's out in the wet soooo... I just have to decide if I want that sort of power delivery, unsure if it would be torture on a longer trip.
Going to look into maintaining the things over the next few days and see what insurance comes back as.
My car (Fury R1) passed SVA back in 2008. SVA didn't require reverse and I didn't fit one.
It just requires a bit of thought when parking, etc; Don't park downhill into a blind space for example. It's easier to undo belts, jump out and push into a space when you arrive, than it is to push out, get in, belt up and drive off. You get good at spotting a slope the car will roll back on. If the worst happens the cars under 500kg and easy to push (even up a slope).
When driving you don't miss it and in 30,000miles I've only had one issue and that was following a mate who turned down a dead end (on purpose in my opinion). Again you just have to keep your wits about you.
It just requires a bit of thought when parking, etc; Don't park downhill into a blind space for example. It's easier to undo belts, jump out and push into a space when you arrive, than it is to push out, get in, belt up and drive off. You get good at spotting a slope the car will roll back on. If the worst happens the cars under 500kg and easy to push (even up a slope).
When driving you don't miss it and in 30,000miles I've only had one issue and that was following a mate who turned down a dead end (on purpose in my opinion). Again you just have to keep your wits about you.
Mine doesn't have reverse, only issue I have is caused by the car having paddles as it makes it harder to select neutral when I want to reverse (by pushing it) the car as you have to do a "half" pull on the left paddle, when the amount of "half" seems to be variable. Least it tells me when its in neutral.
I'm probably going to be selling my rx7 turbo engined SSC Stylus soon. I know you said you didn't want a turbo but I can assure you that this car can put down its 400bhp no problem whatsoever and in no way feels like a peaky turbo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0-zm8-5Pu8
It'll murder a seven for top speed too thanks to the better aerodynamics. Had a westfield with a john eales 4.6 v8 making 300bhp and the stylus handles way better, is a lot faster and is much much easier to drive on the limit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0-zm8-5Pu8
It'll murder a seven for top speed too thanks to the better aerodynamics. Had a westfield with a john eales 4.6 v8 making 300bhp and the stylus handles way better, is a lot faster and is much much easier to drive on the limit.
Edited by dern on Wednesday 23 March 13:32
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