Classic to Capable Grand Tourer
Discussion
Hi there,
I have loved the looks of the Triumph GT6 since I first saw one and have always wanted to own one too, but the underpowered (by today's standards) 2.0 litre straight 6 really puts me off.
Hence, I am trying to work out how to turn one into a reliable and swift grand tourer if I do choose to take the plunge. Effectively I would like to be able to drive it around Europe etc.
My idea is to swap the engine out with something more powerful, between 200-300bhp. Obviously a lot of modifications would be required alongside this to make the car safe and drivable.
My current plan is to start with an original Mark II, completely strip it back to the shell and then start from there.
So far, I've considered the Alfa Romeo V6 Busso engine (probably 3.0 litre). I was wondering if anyone would offer some sensible alternatives? Personally, I would like to avoid supercharging or turbo-charging.
Ollie
I have loved the looks of the Triumph GT6 since I first saw one and have always wanted to own one too, but the underpowered (by today's standards) 2.0 litre straight 6 really puts me off.
Hence, I am trying to work out how to turn one into a reliable and swift grand tourer if I do choose to take the plunge. Effectively I would like to be able to drive it around Europe etc.
My idea is to swap the engine out with something more powerful, between 200-300bhp. Obviously a lot of modifications would be required alongside this to make the car safe and drivable.
My current plan is to start with an original Mark II, completely strip it back to the shell and then start from there.
So far, I've considered the Alfa Romeo V6 Busso engine (probably 3.0 litre). I was wondering if anyone would offer some sensible alternatives? Personally, I would like to avoid supercharging or turbo-charging.
Ollie
Having never driven a GT6 can't really comment on it in particular, but I did some touring in an MGB with only a 1.8 with no issue and would sit happily at 70 all day. Would it not be sufficient to just make sure the standard engine is in good fettle and maybe do some mods to that (porting / cam / carb etc.)?
Also an overdrive or 5 speed box would make the car a lot easier to use on longer journeys, my MGB had overdrive and it was a lot nicer than a standard 4 speed on the motorway.
Failing all that would a Jag straight 6 fit?
Also an overdrive or 5 speed box would make the car a lot easier to use on longer journeys, my MGB had overdrive and it was a lot nicer than a standard 4 speed on the motorway.
Failing all that would a Jag straight 6 fit?
Is putting in a 200-300bhp lump really going to make it that much more reliable? Surely it's just going to lead to mechanical failures in other areas that weren't built to cope with that kind of grunt. Cooling always seems to be an issue following these sort of transplants too.
How about a TVR 3000M instead, you're starting off with a 3.0l V6 and the car is probably more able to cope with 200bhp+ than the GT6. Of course, TVRs are well known for their reliability
How about a TVR 3000M instead, you're starting off with a 3.0l V6 and the car is probably more able to cope with 200bhp+ than the GT6. Of course, TVRs are well known for their reliability
Surprised you think that the power will be insufficient - where would you lose out? traffic light drag race? you're not a boy racer are you?
I had a TR6 for many a year and with little fettling they can be an incredibly fast car.
To my mind it's the old adage of not how much you've got but how you use it; I do get why you might want to change a rattly long crank 6 cylinder for something modern; I really like RetroModern.
Try these to kick you off
Spitfire + MX5 Turbo http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
MX5 + LS3 V8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDMrJhpeYiE&li...
Pop across to Retro Rides those lads certainly know about engine and suspension swops and certainly Stateside there are loads of GT6 mods[url]
I had a TR6 for many a year and with little fettling they can be an incredibly fast car.
To my mind it's the old adage of not how much you've got but how you use it; I do get why you might want to change a rattly long crank 6 cylinder for something modern; I really like RetroModern.
Try these to kick you off
Spitfire + MX5 Turbo http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
MX5 + LS3 V8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDMrJhpeYiE&li...
Pop across to Retro Rides those lads certainly know about engine and suspension swops and certainly Stateside there are loads of GT6 mods[url]
Ollie, the venerable RV8 would be the way to go, lightweight, small package, good power o/p. The Jaguar XK/XJ would be too large, too heavy for real benefit in a GT6. You could consider some of the modern Ford V6 units, again, they're lightweight, small package with good power o/p ala Morgan + good gearbox choices. Have you thought a of 4pot Cosworth or Mazda engine giving a very tuneable 200-220bhp+ ?? Also, take a moment to think of spares availability, it's really important within overall design options. Logically, start with physical size, will it fit? Then drivetrain, then suspension, then brakes...but do design/specify as a complete package.
mph - The Rover V8 isn't a bad idea at all, I guess it'd be the safe option.
NigelStn - I am completely aware an engine upgrade will lead to most performance related components needing to be uprated too. As you said, in its day it was good. I want it to be awesome today.
AceofHearts - I've done some reading up on potential modifications on the standard engine, but even so it's still a 1960s engine. So there are other considerations like overheating, fuel consumption etc. I agree in reality a 2.0 straight six is probably enough, but I'd quite like a bit of performance too. Thanks for the suggestion on the Jag straight six, I'm going to have a look into it.
Mellow Yellow - I'd address all mechanicals to coincide with the transplant. Regards to cooling, putting a V6 in would lead to a lot more room for cooling at the front of the engine bay. I am fairly set on the GT6, purely aesthetically.
Carsie - I wouldn't describe myself as a boy racer, but I do enjoy having a bit of grunt and knowing power is there if I want it. I used to own an MG Midget and speed-wise it always felt as though it was missing something. I've seen a few of the GT6 swaps on youtube, that's where my interest sparked of creating my own GT6 Grand Tourer. I'll check out retro rides and see what swaps I can find.
NigelStn - I am completely aware an engine upgrade will lead to most performance related components needing to be uprated too. As you said, in its day it was good. I want it to be awesome today.
AceofHearts - I've done some reading up on potential modifications on the standard engine, but even so it's still a 1960s engine. So there are other considerations like overheating, fuel consumption etc. I agree in reality a 2.0 straight six is probably enough, but I'd quite like a bit of performance too. Thanks for the suggestion on the Jag straight six, I'm going to have a look into it.
Mellow Yellow - I'd address all mechanicals to coincide with the transplant. Regards to cooling, putting a V6 in would lead to a lot more room for cooling at the front of the engine bay. I am fairly set on the GT6, purely aesthetically.
Carsie - I wouldn't describe myself as a boy racer, but I do enjoy having a bit of grunt and knowing power is there if I want it. I used to own an MG Midget and speed-wise it always felt as though it was missing something. I've seen a few of the GT6 swaps on youtube, that's where my interest sparked of creating my own GT6 Grand Tourer. I'll check out retro rides and see what swaps I can find.
Just put a tr6 engine in it will mount to gearbox if I remember but I think you have to use a 2.0L sump modified slightly for the crank through.
I'm trying to remember I was putting one on a spitfire 30 years ago so can't remember exact details
Triple webbers, 250 bhp with a mildly hot cam
I'm trying to remember I was putting one on a spitfire 30 years ago so can't remember exact details
Triple webbers, 250 bhp with a mildly hot cam
v8250 - You raise a great point about spares availability - it's really put me off the Alfa engine now. Having looked at the Ford units the 3.0l V6 from the Mondeo ST220 looks and more importantly sounds like an attractive option. Plus the Duratec units are used in loads of kit cars, so there should be plenty of knowledge out there. The RV8 is still a good option, but I'm swaying towards the more modern Ford units.
V10Mike - Exactly! Although, I think the LS1 engine is a little bit of overkill.
velocemitch - I plan to one day!
Darrenxj - The main reason for considering an engine swap is to have a modern engine under the bonnet, rather than something from the 70s. I'd rather keep the standard engine and upgrade that if I don't put something more modern in.
hidetheelephants - Same as above really.
HustleRussell - Reliability is not a major qualm for me, but a welcomed bonus. Main factors are fuel consumption, efficiency of the engine (i.e. 1960s 2.0l engine vs 2010s 2.0 engine power outputs), drive-ability etc. As well, I lived with an MG Midget as a daily driver for a while and getting into a modern car with a synchromesh gearbox on first and reverse was lovely.
V10Mike - Exactly! Although, I think the LS1 engine is a little bit of overkill.
velocemitch - I plan to one day!
Darrenxj - The main reason for considering an engine swap is to have a modern engine under the bonnet, rather than something from the 70s. I'd rather keep the standard engine and upgrade that if I don't put something more modern in.
hidetheelephants - Same as above really.
HustleRussell - Reliability is not a major qualm for me, but a welcomed bonus. Main factors are fuel consumption, efficiency of the engine (i.e. 1960s 2.0l engine vs 2010s 2.0 engine power outputs), drive-ability etc. As well, I lived with an MG Midget as a daily driver for a while and getting into a modern car with a synchromesh gearbox on first and reverse was lovely.
OP, one area that's often over looked is balance/weight. It's great to have bucket loads of power but the engine's weight is really important...this leads to front-rear weight ratio, as no car driver wants to blat into corners at relative speed only to find it wants to plough straight on. Aim for 50:50 by corner weighting the car. This is one reason Morgan and many others use the RV8/TVRV8 or Ford Duratec V6; 180-250bhp straight out of the box. For real fun add a couple of turbos, ala Noble, and whooooooooooooooooooosh 425bhp
2.5 version of the Straight Six lump with triple webers and a hot cam along with stage 3 heads would keep the car closer to the original and deliver more power than a RV8 and pretty much be a straight swap.
There is no problem with reliability on these engines if put together properly so when building up the engine just make sure it is done right fit an alloy rad with greater capacity, maybe an electric water pump to help the original when stuck in slow traffic in hot climes and then enjoy that wonderful induction and exhaust noise.
There is no problem with reliability on these engines if put together properly so when building up the engine just make sure it is done right fit an alloy rad with greater capacity, maybe an electric water pump to help the original when stuck in slow traffic in hot climes and then enjoy that wonderful induction and exhaust noise.
Osmoliver said:
v8250 - You raise a great point about spares availability - it's really put me off the Alfa engine now. Having looked at the Ford units the 3.0l V6 from the Mondeo ST220 looks and more importantly sounds like an attractive option. Plus the Duratec units are used in loads of kit cars, so there should be plenty of knowledge out there. The RV8 is still a good option, but I'm swaying towards the more modern Ford units.
V10Mike - Exactly! Although, I think the LS1 engine is a little bit of overkill.
velocemitch - I plan to one day!
Darrenxj - The main reason for considering an engine swap is to have a modern engine under the bonnet, rather than something from the 70s. I'd rather keep the standard engine and upgrade that if I don't put something more modern in.
hidetheelephants - Same as above really.
HustleRussell - Reliability is not a major qualm for me, but a welcomed bonus. Main factors are fuel consumption, efficiency of the engine (i.e. 1960s 2.0l engine vs 2010s 2.0 engine power outputs), drive-ability etc. As well, I lived with an MG Midget as a daily driver for a while and getting into a modern car with a synchromesh gearbox on first and reverse was lovely.
Jaguar (Ford?) 3.0l V6 is a nice engine. I currently have one in my X-Type. If you use and S-Type donor it will also have a RWD gearbox so maybe an easier swap than the Mondeo V10Mike - Exactly! Although, I think the LS1 engine is a little bit of overkill.
velocemitch - I plan to one day!
Darrenxj - The main reason for considering an engine swap is to have a modern engine under the bonnet, rather than something from the 70s. I'd rather keep the standard engine and upgrade that if I don't put something more modern in.
hidetheelephants - Same as above really.
HustleRussell - Reliability is not a major qualm for me, but a welcomed bonus. Main factors are fuel consumption, efficiency of the engine (i.e. 1960s 2.0l engine vs 2010s 2.0 engine power outputs), drive-ability etc. As well, I lived with an MG Midget as a daily driver for a while and getting into a modern car with a synchromesh gearbox on first and reverse was lovely.
Some great ideas for the OP, but.... And a big but, why would you?
To buy a decent GT6 is going to be £10k plus, engine swap and brake / suspension upgrades is going to swallow the same again and you'll be left with a lovely car, but one worth less than a decent restored car.
Would that same £20k not be better off spent on something which fits the bell straight out of the box.
Aston Martin DB7, Lancia 2000 coupe, MGC, Morgan plus 4, XJ-S, 240z Datsun, Mustang etc.. So many alternatives which will be better unmodified.
To buy a decent GT6 is going to be £10k plus, engine swap and brake / suspension upgrades is going to swallow the same again and you'll be left with a lovely car, but one worth less than a decent restored car.
Would that same £20k not be better off spent on something which fits the bell straight out of the box.
Aston Martin DB7, Lancia 2000 coupe, MGC, Morgan plus 4, XJ-S, 240z Datsun, Mustang etc.. So many alternatives which will be better unmodified.
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