Bad experience with my employer
Discussion
I've just won at an employment tribunal in France against my ex-employer years after leaving them. I'm now waiting to see if they appeal but I really need to get it all off my chest. Not getting the money hasn't been too unpleasant but the whole experience has really damaged my confidence and my faith in other people and left me really angry a lot of the time.
I left the UK in the early 2000s. A different employer sent me to the continent. They were brilliant, even though they were Private Equity owned. When it turned out that one of the countries they sent me too wanted a larger slice of my tax my employers worked out how much I would lose out and then compensated me for it and provided detailed calculations showing how they had overcompensated because of course I would have to pay tax on the compensation. They were brilliant. Sadly when it came to the end of the project they had little to offer me back in the UK or elsewhere within the group.
About that time another company called me up out of the blue, a large Franco-German organisation operating at the top end of my particular sector and employing about 10,000 people globally. Whereas I had spent most of my time cutting back for the old employer they wanted me to help them grow. It sounded really attractive and with the support of my wife I went for it. There was one small problem. They wanted me to work at their german office and spend a lot of time travelling. Unfortunately my wife spoke no German and really didn't want to live in Germany. As luck would have it the office was sufficiently close to the border for us to be able to live in France, only half an hour away (and coincidentally leave me with a fun 10 minute blast on the Autobahn as part of my commute every day), so I accepted.
With the previous experience I was wary of tax confusion and asked them to clarify the position. After all, they employed a lot of people in Germany, mostly at or near this office and there were plenty of others living in France. My new boss checked out the situation during our negotiations and explained that if I worked directly for the German company then I might have to pay some taxes in Germany depending on how much I travelled (if anyone is interested I can try to explain this later but it's complex) but that he had checked with the companies legal team and as I was living in France I could have a contract with the French company in Paris and I would just pay French tax. I didn't really care where I paid tax and social security but I wanted to know as part of the negotiation because ultimately I wanted to negotiate a net salary at a certain level and then put taxes etc back on it to get to what I wanted. On this basis we agreed a contract and a salary package and started work. Almost as soon as I started I asked the French Finance Director how to go about paying my tax and he replied explaining that I should just declare it in France and for the next 7 years this is just what I did and every year they submitted my salary details to the French authorities so they knew that it was happening.
I worked for the company for over 7 years in the end and it was good fun but hard work. I travelled a lot, about 50% of the time on average. At the peak I flew over 100 times in one year, it got a bit crazy if I'm honest, 3 day trips to Asia and other times one week in America, one week in Italy and then one week in Asia, one after the other. I worked as an interim manager at a group site in another part of France one year for 9 months (it was supposed to be only three) commuting back to my family at the weekends. My first boss went off to work for a competitor and then another came and went and after I'd been there 5 years someone else came to run our division and he turned up with someone who worked for him who did something very similar to my job. I could see the writing on the wall.
Fortunately I was in a good position now with my French contract, or so I thought. Almost everything you have heard about French labour law and how it favours the employee is true. They had no grounds to make me redundant and if they dismissed me the courts would find in my favour and probably give me something close to two years of salary. I looked around for a new role but with kids at school and having moved plenty before we were reluctant to move again too soon and the local economy was so dire there was little suitable nearby. And at the end of the day I still enjoyed my role so I kept going and started to carve out a new project for myself. Eventually things came to a head and they made it clear that they wanted me to leave but when they started off by offering me two months salary to leave tomorrow (when I had a 6 month notice period in my contract) I knew it might take a while. We finally came to an agreement only for them to pull out at the last moment. So we renegotiated again, agreed a new deal that cost them about 1 years salary but gave me about 18 months thanks to how it was arranged and we signed and after the official cooling off period I started counting the days. On the last day I sent out a mass email to say goodbye and thanks for everything only to get an email back from group HR to say that I couldn't leave because the board hadn't agreed yet. Aaaaaaarrrrrgh.
During this time I was already talking to a lawyer and she told me that I had a clear agreement with them and that they would have to pay it eventually. The company gave me the impression that it was just a matter of procedure that the board had to approve these larger payouts and it would only be a delay. Things dragged on. I couldn't claim unemployment benefit as the company hadn't given me any of the documents that I needed to do so. Eventually after a month or so I started down the tribunal route. In France there is a quick and dirty procedure that is mostly used for unpaid overtime and the like but my lawyer said it was worth a go as I had an agreed departure deal and it was just a question of getting payment. I didn't need to do it with my lawyer and it should be decided quickly in the local tribunal. Unfortunately the tribunal decided it was too complex for them to decide and refused me but they did at least oblige my employer to provide me with the documents that I needed to claim some benefits although these were withheld for several months as on paper I had a huge payout from my employer that they had to assume I would receive.
The complexity that the tribunal baulked at was the introduction by my employers of a tax investigation by the German authorities that suggested that despite the advice I had had seven years previously I should have been paying some tax there all of that time. They couldn't say how much as it wasn't finished but they promised to tell me later. Over a year later when they eventually told me it was almost 90% of the payout that I was owed. Germany reserves the right to reclaim tax for up to 30 years but in France as an individual you can only reclaim overpaid tax for up to 3 years so because of the delay that my ex-employer created I wouldn't be able to claim back any tax in France and would effectively be paying tax in two countries at the same time. Also Germany, unlike France, operates a PAYE tax type system so in fact it is the employers responsibility to collect this tax. In my case they should have calculated the days I was due to pay tax and then reclaimed it from the French company who should have charged me for it. They didn't do this for seven years. If I had known this was going to happen I could easily have changed my working structure by working from home more to avoid nearly all of this. Not only that but when I eventually found out the amounts they had made a number of errors in how they calculated it.
Finally we have gone through the full tribunal procedure and after loads of time and effort they found in my favour. I was never an employee of the German company but the French company who regularly sent me to work in Germany. The tribunal believe that they are responsible for these charges and as I am no longer their employee they can't chase me for them. I think that they've made a small error in how they've calculated the award but as they've also awarded me a modest amount of additional damages this compensates.
It's over for now but if they appeal it could last another couple of years. At least the judgement means that even if they do appeal they still have to pay me now and I might have to give them the money back later. If you've read this far many many thanks. I'm thinking about things I could do now to avoid them appealing. It's a fair amount of money for me but less than 0.5% of last years profits for them but most of all I just want to avoid being dragged down by it for another couple of years. Two more years of stress and sleepless nights. All of the above is true apart from some sections that I've altered to try to make it a bit more anonymous. The result of the tribunal is now a matter of public record so I don't think that I've said anything that I shouldn't. I thought of writing a blog about it or putting it on Facebook but I don't want a future employer to google my name and discover this story. However right I am I know that this would create doubt in the mind of a future employer. I wanted to use the money to start up by myself but when I didn't get it I had to take another job far from my family that didn't work out. Now I've decided to take the plunge and have just set up my own company so I really don't want any of this to be seen by potential clients. So if you have suggestions let me know. And if you think you can guess who I am or my employer was thanks to previous posts please don't write anything here but feel free to pm me.
Again thanks for reading this far and apologies for a swear free rant but it's been really good for me to write this down.
I left the UK in the early 2000s. A different employer sent me to the continent. They were brilliant, even though they were Private Equity owned. When it turned out that one of the countries they sent me too wanted a larger slice of my tax my employers worked out how much I would lose out and then compensated me for it and provided detailed calculations showing how they had overcompensated because of course I would have to pay tax on the compensation. They were brilliant. Sadly when it came to the end of the project they had little to offer me back in the UK or elsewhere within the group.
About that time another company called me up out of the blue, a large Franco-German organisation operating at the top end of my particular sector and employing about 10,000 people globally. Whereas I had spent most of my time cutting back for the old employer they wanted me to help them grow. It sounded really attractive and with the support of my wife I went for it. There was one small problem. They wanted me to work at their german office and spend a lot of time travelling. Unfortunately my wife spoke no German and really didn't want to live in Germany. As luck would have it the office was sufficiently close to the border for us to be able to live in France, only half an hour away (and coincidentally leave me with a fun 10 minute blast on the Autobahn as part of my commute every day), so I accepted.
With the previous experience I was wary of tax confusion and asked them to clarify the position. After all, they employed a lot of people in Germany, mostly at or near this office and there were plenty of others living in France. My new boss checked out the situation during our negotiations and explained that if I worked directly for the German company then I might have to pay some taxes in Germany depending on how much I travelled (if anyone is interested I can try to explain this later but it's complex) but that he had checked with the companies legal team and as I was living in France I could have a contract with the French company in Paris and I would just pay French tax. I didn't really care where I paid tax and social security but I wanted to know as part of the negotiation because ultimately I wanted to negotiate a net salary at a certain level and then put taxes etc back on it to get to what I wanted. On this basis we agreed a contract and a salary package and started work. Almost as soon as I started I asked the French Finance Director how to go about paying my tax and he replied explaining that I should just declare it in France and for the next 7 years this is just what I did and every year they submitted my salary details to the French authorities so they knew that it was happening.
I worked for the company for over 7 years in the end and it was good fun but hard work. I travelled a lot, about 50% of the time on average. At the peak I flew over 100 times in one year, it got a bit crazy if I'm honest, 3 day trips to Asia and other times one week in America, one week in Italy and then one week in Asia, one after the other. I worked as an interim manager at a group site in another part of France one year for 9 months (it was supposed to be only three) commuting back to my family at the weekends. My first boss went off to work for a competitor and then another came and went and after I'd been there 5 years someone else came to run our division and he turned up with someone who worked for him who did something very similar to my job. I could see the writing on the wall.
Fortunately I was in a good position now with my French contract, or so I thought. Almost everything you have heard about French labour law and how it favours the employee is true. They had no grounds to make me redundant and if they dismissed me the courts would find in my favour and probably give me something close to two years of salary. I looked around for a new role but with kids at school and having moved plenty before we were reluctant to move again too soon and the local economy was so dire there was little suitable nearby. And at the end of the day I still enjoyed my role so I kept going and started to carve out a new project for myself. Eventually things came to a head and they made it clear that they wanted me to leave but when they started off by offering me two months salary to leave tomorrow (when I had a 6 month notice period in my contract) I knew it might take a while. We finally came to an agreement only for them to pull out at the last moment. So we renegotiated again, agreed a new deal that cost them about 1 years salary but gave me about 18 months thanks to how it was arranged and we signed and after the official cooling off period I started counting the days. On the last day I sent out a mass email to say goodbye and thanks for everything only to get an email back from group HR to say that I couldn't leave because the board hadn't agreed yet. Aaaaaaarrrrrgh.
During this time I was already talking to a lawyer and she told me that I had a clear agreement with them and that they would have to pay it eventually. The company gave me the impression that it was just a matter of procedure that the board had to approve these larger payouts and it would only be a delay. Things dragged on. I couldn't claim unemployment benefit as the company hadn't given me any of the documents that I needed to do so. Eventually after a month or so I started down the tribunal route. In France there is a quick and dirty procedure that is mostly used for unpaid overtime and the like but my lawyer said it was worth a go as I had an agreed departure deal and it was just a question of getting payment. I didn't need to do it with my lawyer and it should be decided quickly in the local tribunal. Unfortunately the tribunal decided it was too complex for them to decide and refused me but they did at least oblige my employer to provide me with the documents that I needed to claim some benefits although these were withheld for several months as on paper I had a huge payout from my employer that they had to assume I would receive.
The complexity that the tribunal baulked at was the introduction by my employers of a tax investigation by the German authorities that suggested that despite the advice I had had seven years previously I should have been paying some tax there all of that time. They couldn't say how much as it wasn't finished but they promised to tell me later. Over a year later when they eventually told me it was almost 90% of the payout that I was owed. Germany reserves the right to reclaim tax for up to 30 years but in France as an individual you can only reclaim overpaid tax for up to 3 years so because of the delay that my ex-employer created I wouldn't be able to claim back any tax in France and would effectively be paying tax in two countries at the same time. Also Germany, unlike France, operates a PAYE tax type system so in fact it is the employers responsibility to collect this tax. In my case they should have calculated the days I was due to pay tax and then reclaimed it from the French company who should have charged me for it. They didn't do this for seven years. If I had known this was going to happen I could easily have changed my working structure by working from home more to avoid nearly all of this. Not only that but when I eventually found out the amounts they had made a number of errors in how they calculated it.
Finally we have gone through the full tribunal procedure and after loads of time and effort they found in my favour. I was never an employee of the German company but the French company who regularly sent me to work in Germany. The tribunal believe that they are responsible for these charges and as I am no longer their employee they can't chase me for them. I think that they've made a small error in how they've calculated the award but as they've also awarded me a modest amount of additional damages this compensates.
It's over for now but if they appeal it could last another couple of years. At least the judgement means that even if they do appeal they still have to pay me now and I might have to give them the money back later. If you've read this far many many thanks. I'm thinking about things I could do now to avoid them appealing. It's a fair amount of money for me but less than 0.5% of last years profits for them but most of all I just want to avoid being dragged down by it for another couple of years. Two more years of stress and sleepless nights. All of the above is true apart from some sections that I've altered to try to make it a bit more anonymous. The result of the tribunal is now a matter of public record so I don't think that I've said anything that I shouldn't. I thought of writing a blog about it or putting it on Facebook but I don't want a future employer to google my name and discover this story. However right I am I know that this would create doubt in the mind of a future employer. I wanted to use the money to start up by myself but when I didn't get it I had to take another job far from my family that didn't work out. Now I've decided to take the plunge and have just set up my own company so I really don't want any of this to be seen by potential clients. So if you have suggestions let me know. And if you think you can guess who I am or my employer was thanks to previous posts please don't write anything here but feel free to pm me.
Again thanks for reading this far and apologies for a swear free rant but it's been really good for me to write this down.
worsy said:
I read it all 
The only thing that sprung to mind was what a crock the free movement of labour is. Hope it works out for you OP.
Thanks worsy. The only thing that sprung to mind was what a crock the free movement of labour is. Hope it works out for you OP.
Unsurprisingly given my location I'm mostly pro EU but this has left a really bad taste in the mouth. I see every day how the EU is very pro-business and not very pro-individual.
Just look at how hard it is to take cars across borders permanently. If I have an up to date MOT I can bring my UK car to France and drive around as a tourist without a care but if I want to import it here I need to go through hoops and hurdles, have it retested and off the road possibly for weeks. Why is it so hard to come up with a rule to make this easier? If you can't do this then there is a real cost to trying to move across borders if you aren't already so poor you can't afford a car. The only reason it still exists as far as I can tell is to dissuade people from buying new cars across borders and the car companies losing out.
It's a real issue - and will apply soon to the UK (whether inside or outside the EU). In a very short while (6 April) Scotland will be able to set its own Income Tax rates, allowances etc so we will have to cope with UK nationals paying different amounts of Income Tax depending on what part of the UK they live in.
HMRC has already started issuing Scottish Income Tax PAYE Codes. Employers who have Scottish employees who commute across the border from Scotland to England (and vise versa) will need to compute the income tax on each employee based on whether the employee is resident in England or Scotland.
So the application of tax residency is going to affect far more people than we have been used to.
HMRC has already started issuing Scottish Income Tax PAYE Codes. Employers who have Scottish employees who commute across the border from Scotland to England (and vise versa) will need to compute the income tax on each employee based on whether the employee is resident in England or Scotland.
So the application of tax residency is going to affect far more people than we have been used to.
I read it all too.
Seemed like it was a very stressful period for you. But at least the courts found in your favour.
I wouldn't worry about an appeal until it happens. Maybe sit on the money for a while (whack it in a high interest account) but I doubt an appeal would find much, and the cost/time from their legal team would probably make it not financially viable for them to change given the small percentage of profit if has cost them. Clearly their mistake.
On to better things now pal!
Seemed like it was a very stressful period for you. But at least the courts found in your favour.
I wouldn't worry about an appeal until it happens. Maybe sit on the money for a while (whack it in a high interest account) but I doubt an appeal would find much, and the cost/time from their legal team would probably make it not financially viable for them to change given the small percentage of profit if has cost them. Clearly their mistake.
On to better things now pal!
So I've just received the letter telling me that my employers have decided to appeal. I had always expected they would and my solicitor said that these types of cases are nearly always decided in an appeals court. It's still a pain. At least the decision in the tribunal means that they have to pay me and I can keep the money until the final decision which could be another couple of years. I thought that I'd keep writing here about the experience in case anyone is interested but also just to help keep me sane. Having somewhere to dump stuff like this is useful I find.
xjay1337 said:
Another few YEARS?!
How long should one reasonably be expected to have to put up with such things.
I hope for a decision in something between 12 and 18 months. I might have to wait 3 years. That would mean 5 years after I left my employer with an agreed settlement I would still be at risk of losing it all.How long should one reasonably be expected to have to put up with such things.
There are ISA type accounts here too and this is what I'll do but as I'm just starting my own business now I'd rather be able to spend at least some of it. Been to the lawyers today to be told that despite what they have told me they still haven't actually sent the money to her (it has to go through her account for legal reasons). They now have 4 months before they have to present the case for the appeal. Then she hopes that we should get a first hearing date in a different town about 60 miles from me about 8 months later. Depending on how it goes it could be decided then (but unlikely) or take up to another year of arguments. At least as they have now appealed she will also appeal for the few k€ that the tribunal forgot about on my behalf. It wasn't worth it before to drag it out but now we have nothing to lose. What I didn't realise before was that if they lose again )or if we lose) there is a stage beyond that still so in total I could be looking at waiting 7 years after leaving the company to get my money. I don't see how they hope to win. Either I win and they lose out as well as mountains of legal costs or I lose, my insurance pays all the legal costs and I then start slagging them off on every social media and other outlet I can think of. What they owe me is less than 0.3% of their profit last year.
Read it all. Interesting story. Thanks for sharing.
Can''t offer any advice, other than say it has some typical corporate behaviour evident throughout. That's the downside of stability, job security, etc. that usually draws people into these companies.
I hope things will get better from here on. Good luck with your new project!
Can''t offer any advice, other than say it has some typical corporate behaviour evident throughout. That's the downside of stability, job security, etc. that usually draws people into these companies.
I hope things will get better from here on. Good luck with your new project!
Thought I'd update this as I'm back to being pissed off again. The appeal happened in November 2017 and whilst I won the moral victory they sadly largely won the legal one. The appeal court decided that they have absolutely no right to withhold any of my payments to pay any foreign tax. That was clearly their failure and for them to organise and I, as I am no longer an employee, cannot be liable. Unfortunately they took the view that I approached the original court 15 days after the statute of limitations for such a process to complain about my redundancy payment so all I will receive is my final bonus and a little bit more as the original court calculated this incorrectly and I used the appeal process to correct this.
Unfortunately this does impact on my redundancy pay which I should now be paying back. Needless to say we are now taking the appeal to the Cour de Cassation (like the Supreme Court but cheaper as far as I can tell). If I'm lucky I'll get a decision there by March or April next year although they could also simply refuse to hear it. Our argument is fairly simple, we knew about the one year time limit but this should only apply if you disagree with the original deal which we didn't. We just wanted it implemented. My problem now is that if I pay back and then wait until March/April it will be more than 5 years after I left which is normally the absolute limit to claim anything at all so if I lose then that's it.
Having lost in November my old employer waited until July to approach me for the money and then rapidly escalated and are now threatening me with bailiffs! I have the money still so I think I'll pay up as I don't want them dropping round scaring my wife. Meanwhile my lawyer is still beavering away trying to stall them and find a way for me to keep the money.
Unfortunately this does impact on my redundancy pay which I should now be paying back. Needless to say we are now taking the appeal to the Cour de Cassation (like the Supreme Court but cheaper as far as I can tell). If I'm lucky I'll get a decision there by March or April next year although they could also simply refuse to hear it. Our argument is fairly simple, we knew about the one year time limit but this should only apply if you disagree with the original deal which we didn't. We just wanted it implemented. My problem now is that if I pay back and then wait until March/April it will be more than 5 years after I left which is normally the absolute limit to claim anything at all so if I lose then that's it.
Having lost in November my old employer waited until July to approach me for the money and then rapidly escalated and are now threatening me with bailiffs! I have the money still so I think I'll pay up as I don't want them dropping round scaring my wife. Meanwhile my lawyer is still beavering away trying to stall them and find a way for me to keep the money.
Derish said:
Read it all. Interesting story. Thanks for sharing.
Can''t offer any advice, other than say it has some typical corporate behaviour evident throughout. That's the downside of stability, job security, etc. that usually draws people into these companies.
I hope things will get better from here on. Good luck with your new project!
i'll ditto that ^Can''t offer any advice, other than say it has some typical corporate behaviour evident throughout. That's the downside of stability, job security, etc. that usually draws people into these companies.
I hope things will get better from here on. Good luck with your new project!
ToothbrushMan said:
Derish said:
Read it all. Interesting story. Thanks for sharing.
Can''t offer any advice, other than say it has some typical corporate behaviour evident throughout. That's the downside of stability, job security, etc. that usually draws people into these companies.
I hope things will get better from here on. Good luck with your new project!
i'll ditto that ^Can''t offer any advice, other than say it has some typical corporate behaviour evident throughout. That's the downside of stability, job security, etc. that usually draws people into these companies.
I hope things will get better from here on. Good luck with your new project!
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