Taking significant spending power away from my mother?
Discussion
My mother may become a bit of a magnet for door-to-door salesmen and fraudsters.
Latest one was a double glazing firm sticking in a new front and back door (neither needed). She has also been scammed by people doing "work" in her garden who then depart with her money and never return to finish the job. She also fell for the "we're calling from Microsoft and you have a virus" scam too. A plumber who installed a new boiler when her old one was fine.
She has been told several times that UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES should she buy ANYTHING from someone who knocks on her door or calls. It has not made any difference. I'm not too worried currently as they are relatively small sums and she is, she assures me, now wiser. However, she said the same thing before the double glazing thing. And the garden thing.
I'm wondering if there is a way to prevent it without impacting on her life? I don't really want Power of Attorney and have to write every cheque for her. Is there a step in that direction where she needs a countersignature for any expenditure over, say, £500?
Latest one was a double glazing firm sticking in a new front and back door (neither needed). She has also been scammed by people doing "work" in her garden who then depart with her money and never return to finish the job. She also fell for the "we're calling from Microsoft and you have a virus" scam too. A plumber who installed a new boiler when her old one was fine.
She has been told several times that UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES should she buy ANYTHING from someone who knocks on her door or calls. It has not made any difference. I'm not too worried currently as they are relatively small sums and she is, she assures me, now wiser. However, she said the same thing before the double glazing thing. And the garden thing.
I'm wondering if there is a way to prevent it without impacting on her life? I don't really want Power of Attorney and have to write every cheque for her. Is there a step in that direction where she needs a countersignature for any expenditure over, say, £500?
If your mother is fully compos mentis I don't think there's much you can do if she doesn't want you to. You can go for full Court of Protection for which she doesn't have to agree but you need doctor's evidence that she isn't fully in charge of her own mind, it's a long and very expensive process with regular fees to pay with regular checks, loads of paperwork plus you have to give yearly accounts for her money. Good luck whatever happens and I hope you can sort her spending habits out in an amicable way.
Thanks for the replies
Durzel said:
IANAL but Power of Attorney doesn't mean the subject of it forfeits their ability to make decisions about their own affairs, only that the person who has it legally is treated as if they are the person over whom PoA is granted.
You may well be right - in which case it doesn't do what I would want it to do.chevy55 said:
If your mother is fully compos mentis I don't think there's much you can do if she doesn't want you to.
To be clear, this would only be done with her approval. I don't want a fight with her (or my brother, who is sure to stick his oar in). I think she'd be happy to know that she can't do anything stupid.chevy55 said:
You can go for full Court of Protection for which she doesn't have to agree but you need doctor's evidence that she isn't fully in charge of her own mind, it's a long and very expensive process with regular fees to pay with regular checks, loads of paperwork plus you have to give yearly accounts for her money.
Sounds like a sledgehammer to crack a nut and more than I need/want.Edited by AstonZagato on Sunday 28th February 19:09
AstonZagato said:
Thanks for the replies
It all depends on her state of mind but from what you say CoP is not an option to you at the moment, hopefully never. My wife has CoP over her mother's affairs and it's a very big and stressful undertaking.Durzel said:
IANAL but Power of Attorney doesn't mean the subject of it forfeits their ability to make decisions about their own affairs, only that the person who has it legally is treated as if they are the person over whom PoA is granted.
You may well be right - in which case it doesn't do what I would want it to do.chevy55 said:
If your mother is fully compos mentis I don't think there's much you can do if she doesn't want you to.
To be clear, this would only be done with her approval. I don't want a fight with her (or my brother, who is sure to stick his oar in). I think she'd be happy to know that she can't do anything stupid.chevy55 said:
You can go for full Court of Protection for which she doesn't have to agree but you need doctor's evidence that she isn't fully in charge of her own mind, it's a long and very expensive process with regular fees to pay with regular checks, loads of paperwork plus you have to give yearly accounts for her money.
Sounds like a sledgehammer to crack a nut and more than I need/want.Having the same problems with my dad, Cold callers are the worst, I would hate to think what could happen.
I have managed to get him to only keep a small amount of money in his current account, put the rest in his cash ISA or savings account.
He has to go to the bank to transfer money in to top it up. he's 80 and desn't do internet or phone banking,at least that way if someone does manage to con him,it doesn't clean him out.
Might be worth trying.
Andy.
I have managed to get him to only keep a small amount of money in his current account, put the rest in his cash ISA or savings account.
He has to go to the bank to transfer money in to top it up. he's 80 and desn't do internet or phone banking,at least that way if someone does manage to con him,it doesn't clean him out.
Might be worth trying.
Andy.
We have this issue with mil. Wife has LPA, mil doesn't have cheque book just gets cash and uses her debit card.
Her current a/c is monitored online daily by wife who keeps a manageable but adequate amount in it.
Several times we have responded quickly to payments made to various unscrupulous companies who have sold her vitamins for £250, an unneeded wall treatment for £2300 ( £750 deposit taken over the phone), a roof sealing treatment, again unneeded and replacement loft insulation at £400. We also had some scammer persuade her to part with £70 and her bank details on the pretext of applying for a council tax review.
Not perfect because we can't stop these parasites preying on her but at least we get on to it before too much damage is done.
Her current a/c is monitored online daily by wife who keeps a manageable but adequate amount in it.
Several times we have responded quickly to payments made to various unscrupulous companies who have sold her vitamins for £250, an unneeded wall treatment for £2300 ( £750 deposit taken over the phone), a roof sealing treatment, again unneeded and replacement loft insulation at £400. We also had some scammer persuade her to part with £70 and her bank details on the pretext of applying for a council tax review.
Not perfect because we can't stop these parasites preying on her but at least we get on to it before too much damage is done.
AstonZagato said:
How do you unwind those transactions? Just complain?
Yes. Most of them have cooling off periods, quote the relevant legislation and they normally concede fairly easily. It's important to keep regular check on things and react quickly. They seem to want to avoid negative publicity so refund without a fight. Obviously a problem if an out and out scam but real scammers rarely take payments on cards as far as we know.
In the case of the vitamins they had already despatched them but agreed to credit if we returned. We've done that, with recorded delivery and have notes of conversations. If we don't get the money back soon we'll take it up with debit card company but we think we'll get the cash.
Problem is that that company sold her stuff two years ago, and we went through the same process. Awful business practice.
I have a similar issue with my mother. She's the most lovely, loyal, innocent and trusting old lady, and yet has become the prey for these scumbags.
Recently she was convinced to give out her debit card details over the phone as her "television insurance policy had lapsed". If she renewed immediately it would only be £70 rather than £100. Her TV is a 21" CRT and completely worthless... but there was a shadow of doubt in her mind that my late father may have had such a policy running. She describes being put through to various "departments" and talking to different people during the call to give the impression of authenticity.
Luckily in this case she knew she'd done something wrong as soon as she put the phone down, so I was able to cancel her card immediately. The same guy had the audacity to phone back a few days later to let her know her card details had been declined and could they have the correct number...!
It wouldn't surprise me if her number has been profiled and is being passed around as an easy target. Luckily she lives in a very rural area and physical cold callers never seem to venture that far out of town.
I can't take her debit card away from her, but monitoring her current account on a daily basis seems like a good idea.
Incidentally - it's not just scammers taking advantage. I'm currently dealing with a home insurance automatic renewal from a major insurance company for almost double the annual rate easily achievable by anyone with an internet connection. My mother has been just filing previous renewals because she wanted to remain loyal to the same company and didn't want any bother...
Recently she was convinced to give out her debit card details over the phone as her "television insurance policy had lapsed". If she renewed immediately it would only be £70 rather than £100. Her TV is a 21" CRT and completely worthless... but there was a shadow of doubt in her mind that my late father may have had such a policy running. She describes being put through to various "departments" and talking to different people during the call to give the impression of authenticity.
Luckily in this case she knew she'd done something wrong as soon as she put the phone down, so I was able to cancel her card immediately. The same guy had the audacity to phone back a few days later to let her know her card details had been declined and could they have the correct number...!
It wouldn't surprise me if her number has been profiled and is being passed around as an easy target. Luckily she lives in a very rural area and physical cold callers never seem to venture that far out of town.
I can't take her debit card away from her, but monitoring her current account on a daily basis seems like a good idea.
Incidentally - it's not just scammers taking advantage. I'm currently dealing with a home insurance automatic renewal from a major insurance company for almost double the annual rate easily achievable by anyone with an internet connection. My mother has been just filing previous renewals because she wanted to remain loyal to the same company and didn't want any bother...
I recall someone sold (not a rent a roof scheme) solar panels to my grandfather. Worked out that it would have taken 50 years to pay for themselves. He was 94 at the time.
My father on the war path got the contract cancelled. There was talk of Power of Attorney at the time, but not sure if that ever happened.
There was a post on PH last night - a Building Society had refused chap's mother access to her savings when she had been driven down to them by some contractors in a van. They were asking to see a vat invoice first. It's great to see institutions to be protecting customers, and while it could be taken a step too far, putting a simple roadblock in place that most reputable contractors can overcome seem's a great way of doing it.
My father on the war path got the contract cancelled. There was talk of Power of Attorney at the time, but not sure if that ever happened.
There was a post on PH last night - a Building Society had refused chap's mother access to her savings when she had been driven down to them by some contractors in a van. They were asking to see a vat invoice first. It's great to see institutions to be protecting customers, and while it could be taken a step too far, putting a simple roadblock in place that most reputable contractors can overcome seem's a great way of doing it.
You may not think getting POA is the right thing to do now, but if you sort it out while the going is relatively good it will give you peace of mind for the future and avoid having to go the Court of Protection route if something were to happen later on.
Having said that, being an attorney for financial affairs sometimes makes things more complicated and difficult when you really only want to be able to monitor bank accounts, make payments on someone's behalf or just discuss their account with a bank or utility.
Often, it's easier to become a third party on an account which can usually be done by filling out a couple forms, or just speaking to the call centre when the account holder is present and getting them to add you as another contact so that later you can phone them yourself and discuss account details without the account holder being present.
As others have said, if she will agree to it I would say the best way is to make sure there's a small amount in her current account and she has a modest amount of cash available to her.
I've got LPA for my mother and although we're both happy she could manage her finances reasonably well still, she has been subject to a few 'rogue traders' in the past and I'd rather keep an eye on things and make sure it doesn't happen again, so I've ring fenced her savings and monitor her bank debit and Visa cards closely for unusual activity.
I've also stuck a couple of warning signs on the front door - "No doorstepping or else" kind of thing and a "24hr CCTV in Operation" sign, with a very visible camera pointing out through the glass at anyone knocking on the door. Even if you only used a dummy camera, it would help to discourage scalliwags from trying things on.
Having said that, being an attorney for financial affairs sometimes makes things more complicated and difficult when you really only want to be able to monitor bank accounts, make payments on someone's behalf or just discuss their account with a bank or utility.
Often, it's easier to become a third party on an account which can usually be done by filling out a couple forms, or just speaking to the call centre when the account holder is present and getting them to add you as another contact so that later you can phone them yourself and discuss account details without the account holder being present.
As others have said, if she will agree to it I would say the best way is to make sure there's a small amount in her current account and she has a modest amount of cash available to her.
I've got LPA for my mother and although we're both happy she could manage her finances reasonably well still, she has been subject to a few 'rogue traders' in the past and I'd rather keep an eye on things and make sure it doesn't happen again, so I've ring fenced her savings and monitor her bank debit and Visa cards closely for unusual activity.
I've also stuck a couple of warning signs on the front door - "No doorstepping or else" kind of thing and a "24hr CCTV in Operation" sign, with a very visible camera pointing out through the glass at anyone knocking on the door. Even if you only used a dummy camera, it would help to discourage scalliwags from trying things on.
How happy is your mother to allow you to do this?
Is she currently of sound mind?
What about putting all her money into an account that only you have access to and leaving her a sum in hers to get food etc...
All major bills etc come from the account only you have access to? You will also need to write (well, she signs a letter) giving you access to act on her behalf with each institution...
Is she currently of sound mind?
What about putting all her money into an account that only you have access to and leaving her a sum in hers to get food etc...
All major bills etc come from the account only you have access to? You will also need to write (well, she signs a letter) giving you access to act on her behalf with each institution...
Can you go and have a chat with the bank manager with your mum there?? Done it a few times and they are usually very willing to help. Most will allow you to set a lower limit on debit car transactions to stop any large bills going out that way or restrict the daily amount you can withdraw from cash machines without going into the bank. You could be a join name on her account and give her the card with the lower limit then you still have your card if she needs more for something specific.
I had similar issues with my mother despite having POA.
They included, £1900 for an electric sun blind (not including fitting) Similar ones I found online for £500.
When her phone line got cut by a "tradesman" who was doing a re-wire, the company that "talks a lot" charged her £900 for a re-termination. Managed to get that one back through the bank and never heard anything again.
She got caught twice by messages left on her phone to "call this number more to claim your prize" £15 on the bill each time and no prize!
I think she was also Avon and Betterware's best customer. When I cleared her cupboards out I found bottles of wooden floor cleaner when the house was carpeted throughout. The guy used to come inside to take her orders and knew this!
Best thing you can do as others have advised is to keep the bulk of any money in a separate account and drip feed into a "bill" account on a monthly basis.
They included, £1900 for an electric sun blind (not including fitting) Similar ones I found online for £500.
When her phone line got cut by a "tradesman" who was doing a re-wire, the company that "talks a lot" charged her £900 for a re-termination. Managed to get that one back through the bank and never heard anything again.
She got caught twice by messages left on her phone to "call this number more to claim your prize" £15 on the bill each time and no prize!
I think she was also Avon and Betterware's best customer. When I cleared her cupboards out I found bottles of wooden floor cleaner when the house was carpeted throughout. The guy used to come inside to take her orders and knew this!
Best thing you can do as others have advised is to keep the bulk of any money in a separate account and drip feed into a "bill" account on a monthly basis.
Jasandjules said:
How happy is your mother to allow you to do this?
Is she currently of sound mind?
She has discussed giving me Power of Attorney in the past. So I think she buys into the general concept of helping her with her finances. I don't think she regards herself as prey for these unscrupulous people. At least yet.Is she currently of sound mind?
She is of sound mind but it is going - sometimes she is pin-sharp, other times less so. She phoned me to ask my date of birth a few months ago. Then I spoke to her a couple of weeks later and she instantly recalled my DOB - but had forgotten that she had called me to ask my DOB previously.
AstonZagato said:
She has discussed giving me Power of Attorney in the past. So I think she buys into the general concept of helping her with her finances. I don't think she regards herself as prey for these unscrupulous people. At least yet.
She is of sound mind but it is going - sometimes she is pin-sharp, other times less so. She phoned me to ask my date of birth a few months ago. Then I spoke to her a couple of weeks later and she instantly recalled my DOB - but had forgotten that she had called me to ask my DOB previously.
On that basis I would suggest you get PoA now. It sounds silly but far better to get it whilst she has enough sound mind to do so..... She is of sound mind but it is going - sometimes she is pin-sharp, other times less so. She phoned me to ask my date of birth a few months ago. Then I spoke to her a couple of weeks later and she instantly recalled my DOB - but had forgotten that she had called me to ask my DOB previously.
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff