Discussion
I have a Boxster with 19 inch wheels with Bridgestone Potenza's 235/35 front and 265/35 back. I'm getting close to having to fit new boots all round and wondered what other alternatives there are for a similar price. Has to be an all season tyre with decent wet grip - not just a track tyre. My current short list is Pirelli P Zero and Dunlop SP Sport Maxx GT. Any views on these please plus any other alternatives I should consider? All replies/info gratefully received.
Make sure they're N marked whatever you choose.
Goodyear advised me Porsche work with them to create a tyre sidewall which integrates with the car's chassis for best handling characteristics.
My OPC advised me, in writing, that fitting non N marked tyres "can invalidate your warranty on the drive chain/transmission side and also when the time is due for renewal, a warranty could not be issued if the vehicle is fitted with non-standard equipment and non N rated tyres."
Pirelli have confirmed my 20" P Zeros should be replaced after cracking appeared in the grooves and shoulders. They're collecting them this week for a partial refund pro rata to wear (50%)...
I'm switching to Goodyear F1 A2 as Michelins in my size aren't N marked.
Goodyear advised me Porsche work with them to create a tyre sidewall which integrates with the car's chassis for best handling characteristics.
My OPC advised me, in writing, that fitting non N marked tyres "can invalidate your warranty on the drive chain/transmission side and also when the time is due for renewal, a warranty could not be issued if the vehicle is fitted with non-standard equipment and non N rated tyres."
Pirelli have confirmed my 20" P Zeros should be replaced after cracking appeared in the grooves and shoulders. They're collecting them this week for a partial refund pro rata to wear (50%)...
I'm switching to Goodyear F1 A2 as Michelins in my size aren't N marked.
Edited by DJMC on Monday 29th February 11:36
There is some truth in the fact that an N rated tyre could be different to a non N rated, of the same make type etc.
I would also plump for the Mich Pilot SS
Had them on my Panamera Turbo, and they were so much better than the normal pilot sports
ultimate dry grip (and actually not that bad in the wet) from Michelin Cup 2
I would also plump for the Mich Pilot SS
Had them on my Panamera Turbo, and they were so much better than the normal pilot sports
ultimate dry grip (and actually not that bad in the wet) from Michelin Cup 2
Many car manufacturers work with tyre manufacturers to specify the design of the tyre. E.g. Audi, Merc, BMW, Ferrari, Porsche.
Goodyear work with Mercedes (non-AMG) to reduce tyre noise for instance. But Goodyear severely warned me off non N (Porsche marking, N0, N1, etc.) tyres for my 981 as it's the sidewall construction which differs from a N marked tyre.
I had considered Super Sports for my Cayman, but following a discussion with David Mullin at Goodyear I understood more about the importance of sticking to N marked tyres for modern Porsches.
Jamie McWhir at Michelin (UK technical manager) also recently warned me off Super Sports for the same reason, and that he'd known of instances where non N marked tyres had invalidated a Porsche warranty. He recommended the new 20" PS4 N marked tyre due out with the launch of the 718 (original equipment) but my tyres need changing now, so I've gone for the Goodyear F1 A2s which were excellent on my TTS.
I would have gone with SS or PS4 if they had been available N marked in my sizes as Michelin is widely thought to be the best.
Goodyear work with Mercedes (non-AMG) to reduce tyre noise for instance. But Goodyear severely warned me off non N (Porsche marking, N0, N1, etc.) tyres for my 981 as it's the sidewall construction which differs from a N marked tyre.
I had considered Super Sports for my Cayman, but following a discussion with David Mullin at Goodyear I understood more about the importance of sticking to N marked tyres for modern Porsches.
Jamie McWhir at Michelin (UK technical manager) also recently warned me off Super Sports for the same reason, and that he'd known of instances where non N marked tyres had invalidated a Porsche warranty. He recommended the new 20" PS4 N marked tyre due out with the launch of the 718 (original equipment) but my tyres need changing now, so I've gone for the Goodyear F1 A2s which were excellent on my TTS.
I would have gone with SS or PS4 if they had been available N marked in my sizes as Michelin is widely thought to be the best.
purple haze said:
I have a Boxster with 19 inch wheels with Bridgestone Potenza's 235/35 front and 265/35 back. I'm getting close to having to fit new boots all round and wondered what other alternatives there are for a similar price. Has to be an all season tyre with decent wet grip - not just a track tyre. My current short list is Pirelli P Zero and Dunlop SP Sport Maxx GT. Any views on these please plus any other alternatives I should consider? All replies/info gratefully received.
Look herehttp://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/
I'd include Goodyear, Michelin and Vredestein.
Is your car in warranty? If not I'd fit the best tyres for your needs, not the needs of Porsche.
purple haze said:
Thanks guys for the quick replies. Sorry to be a dummy but what's the 'N' rating and it's significance?
N rating *was* a very useful guide back in the 1990s when it was introduced by Porsche - basically it said 'we've tested these tyres on a Porsche, and we think they are good'.Remember that back then there was nowhere near as much independent testing as today, and Porsche were just being helpful.
Unfortunately today that 'help' has morphed into 'you must choose from these few tyres available in your sizes, or invalidate your warranty!!!!'
Just because a tyre is not N-rated does not mean it is not suitable for your car.
1) Porsche fit non-N-rated MPSS to the cars they use at Silverstone - I can't imagine a tyre getting more abuse.
2) a specific example of why 'N-rating' doesn't work for me - the exact same N-rated tyre (size/spec/everything) is fitted to the back of a Boxster, back of a 964/993/996 and front of the more modern Porsches - how can a single tyre be 'specifically tuned to the chassis and handling characteristics' when they are mid-engined, rear-engined, fitted as front tyres and on older or newer models?
3) if there are functional differences in N-rated tyres from Non-N, why do the manufacturers/Porsche refuse to publish them?
(Please don't say 'to stop Wanli from copying them and producing them cheaply...')
Edited by Orangecurry on Monday 29th February 12:21
What we perhaps need is for someone to phone Michelin and ask Jamie McWhir if 20" Super Sports would be OK for a 981 which is OUT of warranty. Would he still advise against it now that there is no worry about warranty being invalidated?
Out of curiosity I just phoned David Mullin at Goodyear again. He advises that my 20" 981 F1 A2 N0s do indeed have a different sidewall construction to a generic non N marked tyre of the same fitting. He says Goodyear work together with Porsche (and Audi, BMW) to design a tyre specific to the brand's model requirements.
He also mentioned that a new N marked derivative of a current tyre for a new model Porsche (say a N4) may well be worse on an older model Porsche which came with, say, N0 tyres originally. Apparently some assume that the latest N suffix number denotes an improvement over a previous tyre fitted to their older model Porsche whereas the new tyre has been developed for a different chassis. So the advice is to stick with the original N number specified for your car.
Out of curiosity I just phoned David Mullin at Goodyear again. He advises that my 20" 981 F1 A2 N0s do indeed have a different sidewall construction to a generic non N marked tyre of the same fitting. He says Goodyear work together with Porsche (and Audi, BMW) to design a tyre specific to the brand's model requirements.
He also mentioned that a new N marked derivative of a current tyre for a new model Porsche (say a N4) may well be worse on an older model Porsche which came with, say, N0 tyres originally. Apparently some assume that the latest N suffix number denotes an improvement over a previous tyre fitted to their older model Porsche whereas the new tyre has been developed for a different chassis. So the advice is to stick with the original N number specified for your car.
DJMC said:
He also mentioned that a new N marked derivative of a current tyre for a new model Porsche (say a N4) may well be worse on an older model Porsche which came with, say, N0 tyres originally. Apparently some assume that the latest N suffix number denotes an improvement over a previous tyre fitted to their older model Porsche whereas the new tyre has been developed for a different chassis. So the advice is to stick with the original N number specified for your car.
Just to clarify - your man at Goodyear said that you should source the original N-version for your (older) Porsche?Nahhhh he didn't - as Trev says, you can't source them.
Also - tyre technology moves on rapidly - the latest version of any quality HP/UHP tyre today will be significantly better in every situation than EVERY version of N-rated tyre that was on sale ten years ago (and older).
(Don't say MPS 2 vs MPS 3 - the 3 was not a replacement for the 2 - there will be other such examples - don't nit-pick!
)Edited by Orangecurry on Monday 29th February 15:10
Trev450 said:
On the subject of fitting non N spec PSS, they must be an improvement otherwise PEC Silverstone wouldn't be fitting them.
Not sure that follows - Silverstone PEC use is very different from what most cars will have. So while they may be better - more durable for example - under their use - it doesn't necessarily mean they are a better tyre all round.While there seems to be a general belief that that Michelins are "better" than Pirellis (and it may well be true overall) - what does that actually MEAN? Better lateral grip? Better Traction? Better braking? Better Feel? More progressive? Lighter/heavier steering? In the dry/wet/greasy/icy conditions? Less prone to tramline or wander? More durable? More comfortable? Less bump thump? Less road noise? It sure as hell won't be better in every area.
Given that one person's use and priorities may be very different from another's then it's unlikely that any tyre will be "best" for everyone.
bcr5784 said:
Trev450 said:
On the subject of fitting non N spec PSS, they must be an improvement otherwise PEC Silverstone wouldn't be fitting them.
Not sure that follows - Silverstone PEC use is very different from what most cars will have. So while they may be better - more durable for example - under their use - it doesn't necessarily mean they are a better tyre all round.While there seems to be a general belief that that Michelins are "better" than Pirellis (and it may well be true overall) - what does that actually MEAN? Better lateral grip? Better Traction? Better braking? Better Feel? More progressive? Lighter/heavier steering? In the dry/wet/greasy/icy conditions? Less prone to tramline or wander? More durable? More comfortable? Less bump thump? Less road noise? It sure as hell won't be better in every area.
Given that one person's use and priorities may be very different from another's then it's unlikely that any tyre will be "best" for everyone.
Trev450 said:
Given that one of PEC's main puposes is to demonstrate the brand in the best possible light, surely it follows that they would choose the best 'all round' tyre. By that I mean the one that would inspire the most confidence in a car under a wide range of situations.
I think they would want to demonstrate it (to what they considered its best) in the conditions at the PEC. The track is smooth so grip becomes more important than (say) noise or ride and, as I say durability will play a part - and PZeros don't seem that good. They might (for example) take the view that anyone who is keen to go round the track is interested in grip over comfort - and, in any case, comfort isn't what you focus on (even if it is a consideration) when going round the track. Frankly, neither of us know their thinking behind the choice, but I don't think that their priorities would NECESSARILY accord with mine. We have lots of debate on here about PASM vs X73 and how good an 987 R is. There is clearly a wide divergence of view as to what is acceptable in terms of ride. Likewise the 987 vs 981 debate demonstrates a similarly wide divergence on the importance of steering feel. So I think that talking in terms of "best" is too simplistic. I would have different priorities in terms of tyre characteristics for a weekend/trackday toy to a DD used for continental tours.
For a hoon car ride comfort, road noise, straight line stability, possibly wet grip might not figure much in my priorities - but become more of an issue on a DD used as a "GT" car.
I need to change my 981 20" tyres as well. Try getting Porsche rated Michelin tyres at the moment. Not easy. Supply always seems sporadic.
My Michelin tyres show the same carcass damage as the pictures here show. Taking car into supplying dealer tomorrow. They have just told me that OPC will release cars with as low as 2.5/3mm of tread as I queried why tyres are so low on a car I've just bought (should have checked more closely before I did the deal).
My Michelin tyres show the same carcass damage as the pictures here show. Taking car into supplying dealer tomorrow. They have just told me that OPC will release cars with as low as 2.5/3mm of tread as I queried why tyres are so low on a car I've just bought (should have checked more closely before I did the deal).
Lots of helpful responses guys. I thought I should add (probably should have said this at the start!)that my Boxster is a 987,well out of warranty but with only 16k miles, and while I've done my share of track days at 67 years young that's not top of my list anymore! But the Bridgestone's are noisy on the typically bad surfaces we have in the UK and I'm not greatly enamoured of their wet road grip, or breakaway characteristics. I'm not so bothered these days about wear as I only do about 5k a year in the car, and it's all pleasure motoring, but I do like progressive breakaway and the confidence that comes with that when I'm pushing on. So far the most positive responses have been towards the Michelins. And I'll happily pay a bit more for the right tyre. After all, it's what keeps you (hopefully) on the road!
Orangecurry said:
Just to clarify - your man at Goodyear said that you should source the original N-version for your (older) Porsche?
Nahhhh he didn't - as Trev says, you can't source them.
[/footnote]
Did I have to add "if they still make them"? Perhaps I should have worried that some would scrap their vintage Porsche instead of finding an alternative tyre. Hmmm....Nahhhh he didn't - as Trev says, you can't source them.
[/footnote]
I'm no expert, hence my phoning Goodyear and Michelin to find out what they say. And what they say is repeated here. I guess some know better than them.
purple haze said:
Lots of helpful responses guys. I thought I should add (probably should have said this at the start!)that my Boxster is a 987,well out of warranty but with only 16k miles, and while I've done my share of track days at 67 years young that's not top of my list anymore! But the Bridgestone's are noisy on the typically bad surfaces we have in the UK and I'm not greatly enamoured of their wet road grip, or breakaway characteristics. I'm not so bothered these days about wear as I only do about 5k a year in the car, and it's all pleasure motoring, but I do like progressive breakaway and the confidence that comes with that when I'm pushing on. So far the most positive responses have been towards the Michelins. And I'll happily pay a bit more for the right tyre. After all, it's what keeps you (hopefully) on the road!
On a specific point - road noise - the Pirellis are GOOD on bumpthump on bumpy roads (quiet) BUT very noisy on coarse motorway surfaces - but those findings are on a 981 not a 987.Biggriff said:
I need to change my 981 20" tyres as well. Try getting Porsche rated Michelin tyres at the moment. Not easy. Supply always seems sporadic.
My Michelin tyres show the same carcass damage as the pictures here show. Taking car into supplying dealer tomorrow. They have just told me that OPC will release cars with as low as 2.5/3mm of tread as I queried why tyres are so low on a car I've just bought (should have checked more closely before I did the deal).
There is no 20" Michelin summer tyre which is Porsche rated and will fit the front & rear 981 wheel sizes until the new N0 PS4 20" comes out for the 718.My Michelin tyres show the same carcass damage as the pictures here show. Taking car into supplying dealer tomorrow. They have just told me that OPC will release cars with as low as 2.5/3mm of tread as I queried why tyres are so low on a car I've just bought (should have checked more closely before I did the deal).
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