PCN for non display of permit - appeal rejected - opinions?
Discussion
Would appreciate your advice and opinions please chaps.
I currently rent in a block of flats that have allocated individual parking spaces. These are managed by a private parking company with residential parking permits. My permit is displayed in the tax disc holder of my daily drive BMW.
Unfortunately the BMW had some issues (ruddy bonnet cable snapped & ACT+T light) and as such needed to undergo repairs. Consequently, I borrowed my sister's old Polo on a temporary basis while the BMW was at the mechanics. Lamentably, I forgot to move the permit from the E36 to the Polo. Two days later (when parked in my allocated space) I was stung with a PCN for £100 (£60 if paid within a given timeframe).
I wrote a letter to the appeals department explaining the above and enclosed a copy of my residential parking permit.
This has however been rejected along with a spiel about by parking there one accept the contract etc etc. Enclosed was some paperwork regarding appealing to POPLA.
I understand that the car was 'correctly' ticketed (non display of permit), however I would expect given the situation and reasonable explanation a modicum of common sense would be demonstrated and ticket cancelled. Surely the raison d'être of the private parking enforcement company is to protect residents, not fine them (£100!!!) for a mistake.
I've fought a previous (overstay) ticket via POPLA on account of 'not genuine pre-estimate of loss' however I was under the impression a recent court ruling made this no longer an option. I am also aware of the rule changes from a couple of years ago which meant the RK could be pursued for fines so ignoring is not ideal.
As a matter of principle I'm not giving these clowns £100 for parking in my own allocated space. I'll look into a POPLA appeal, seems to me that they've changed the site to 'streamline' things though it's most likely I'd choose the 'parked in an area you were free to park' and explain the extenuating circumstances.
What are your thoughts chaps? POPLA appeal? Ignore? Letter to tell them to f
k off? Suffice to say, I'm not a happy bunny over this. 
I currently rent in a block of flats that have allocated individual parking spaces. These are managed by a private parking company with residential parking permits. My permit is displayed in the tax disc holder of my daily drive BMW.
Unfortunately the BMW had some issues (ruddy bonnet cable snapped & ACT+T light) and as such needed to undergo repairs. Consequently, I borrowed my sister's old Polo on a temporary basis while the BMW was at the mechanics. Lamentably, I forgot to move the permit from the E36 to the Polo. Two days later (when parked in my allocated space) I was stung with a PCN for £100 (£60 if paid within a given timeframe).
I wrote a letter to the appeals department explaining the above and enclosed a copy of my residential parking permit.
This has however been rejected along with a spiel about by parking there one accept the contract etc etc. Enclosed was some paperwork regarding appealing to POPLA.
I understand that the car was 'correctly' ticketed (non display of permit), however I would expect given the situation and reasonable explanation a modicum of common sense would be demonstrated and ticket cancelled. Surely the raison d'être of the private parking enforcement company is to protect residents, not fine them (£100!!!) for a mistake.
I've fought a previous (overstay) ticket via POPLA on account of 'not genuine pre-estimate of loss' however I was under the impression a recent court ruling made this no longer an option. I am also aware of the rule changes from a couple of years ago which meant the RK could be pursued for fines so ignoring is not ideal.
As a matter of principle I'm not giving these clowns £100 for parking in my own allocated space. I'll look into a POPLA appeal, seems to me that they've changed the site to 'streamline' things though it's most likely I'd choose the 'parked in an area you were free to park' and explain the extenuating circumstances.
What are your thoughts chaps? POPLA appeal? Ignore? Letter to tell them to f
k off? Suffice to say, I'm not a happy bunny over this. I would pay the £60 and put it down to experience because if you leave it for a few more weeks the parking company will pass the debt onto an enforcement agency and you will get a bill for £150 and in the future even more costs.
People will say to ignore the letters or tell them to feck off but is it worth the potential hassle and costs down the line for the sake of £60
People will say to ignore the letters or tell them to feck off but is it worth the potential hassle and costs down the line for the sake of £60
btcc123 said:
I would pay the £60 and put it down to experience because if you leave it for a few more weeks the parking company will pass the debt onto an enforcement agency and you will get a bill for £150 and in the future even more costs.
People will say to ignore the letters or tell them to feck off but is it worth the potential hassle and costs down the line for the sake of £60
Yes, similarly I prefer not to encourage seagulls by feeding them the occasional chip. People will say to ignore the letters or tell them to feck off but is it worth the potential hassle and costs down the line for the sake of £60
The private parking companies on residential blocks like the OP are not "managing the car park by deterring non-residents" they are earning revenue from penalising those who are legitimaely there. They will try every trick in the book to extort money out of people, and I personally prefer not to give them the satisfaction of earning a penny in revenue from me, or any of the thousands of vehicles that I am responsible for.
I've yet to find a single ticket that has been issued at a "residents permit only" location where there is a valid contract in place with the landowner (not the management company) and that will take precedent over the AST or leasehold that the resident has.
The whole industry is a scam, from top to bottom.
Just pay it - are you guys for real?
OP - its YOUR space - get onto the management company, make it clear that you have no idea intention of paying & firmly demand that they contact the parking company they have chosen to employ on your behalf to protect YOUR parking interests & request they rescind the ticket.
OP - its YOUR space - get onto the management company, make it clear that you have no idea intention of paying & firmly demand that they contact the parking company they have chosen to employ on your behalf to protect YOUR parking interests & request they rescind the ticket.
DaveCWK said:
Just pay it - are you guys for real?
OP - its YOUR space - get onto the management company, make it clear that you have no idea intention of paying & firmly demand that they contact the parking company they have chosen to employ on your behalf to protect YOUR parking interests & request they rescind the ticket.
Most management companies say that they won't get involved with disputes for this very reason... I would imagine that the OP's one is the same, although it might be worth a try.OP - its YOUR space - get onto the management company, make it clear that you have no idea intention of paying & firmly demand that they contact the parking company they have chosen to employ on your behalf to protect YOUR parking interests & request they rescind the ticket.
End of the day, the OP has been correctly ticketed. Could they reverse the ticket? I'm sure they could. Will they? Probably not - tickets are how they make their living, like it or not, and so with something as cut and dried as this you'd have to assume they'll stick to their guns.
g3org3y said:
Would appreciate your advice and opinions please chaps.
I currently rent in a block of flats that have allocated individual parking spaces. These are managed by a private parking company with residential parking permits. My permit is displayed in the tax disc holder of my daily drive BMW.
Unfortunately the BMW had some issues (ruddy bonnet cable snapped & ACT+T light) and as such needed to undergo repairs. Consequently, I borrowed my sister's old Polo on a temporary basis while the BMW was at the mechanics. Lamentably, I forgot to move the permit from the E36 to the Polo. Two days later (when parked in my allocated space) I was stung with a PCN for £100 (£60 if paid within a given timeframe).
I wrote a letter to the appeals department explaining the above and enclosed a copy of my residential parking permit.
This has however been rejected along with a spiel about by parking there one accept the contract etc etc. Enclosed was some paperwork regarding appealing to POPLA.
I understand that the car was 'correctly' ticketed (non display of permit), however I would expect given the situation and reasonable explanation a modicum of common sense would be demonstrated and ticket cancelled. Surely the raison d'être of the private parking enforcement company is to protect residents, not fine them (£100!!!) for a mistake.
I've fought a previous (overstay) ticket via POPLA on account of 'not genuine pre-estimate of loss' however I was under the impression a recent court ruling made this no longer an option. I am also aware of the rule changes from a couple of years ago which meant the RK could be pursued for fines so ignoring is not ideal.
As a matter of principle I'm not giving these clowns £100 for parking in my own allocated space. I'll look into a POPLA appeal, seems to me that they've changed the site to 'streamline' things though it's most likely I'd choose the 'parked in an area you were free to park' and explain the extenuating circumstances.
What are your thoughts chaps? POPLA appeal? Ignore? Letter to tell them to fk off? Suffice to say, I'm not a happy bunny over this.
Another one who has also posted on MSE. Stick with that. You'll get plenty of opinion on here but not much in the way of actual help.I currently rent in a block of flats that have allocated individual parking spaces. These are managed by a private parking company with residential parking permits. My permit is displayed in the tax disc holder of my daily drive BMW.
Unfortunately the BMW had some issues (ruddy bonnet cable snapped & ACT+T light) and as such needed to undergo repairs. Consequently, I borrowed my sister's old Polo on a temporary basis while the BMW was at the mechanics. Lamentably, I forgot to move the permit from the E36 to the Polo. Two days later (when parked in my allocated space) I was stung with a PCN for £100 (£60 if paid within a given timeframe).
I wrote a letter to the appeals department explaining the above and enclosed a copy of my residential parking permit.
This has however been rejected along with a spiel about by parking there one accept the contract etc etc. Enclosed was some paperwork regarding appealing to POPLA.
I understand that the car was 'correctly' ticketed (non display of permit), however I would expect given the situation and reasonable explanation a modicum of common sense would be demonstrated and ticket cancelled. Surely the raison d'être of the private parking enforcement company is to protect residents, not fine them (£100!!!) for a mistake.
I've fought a previous (overstay) ticket via POPLA on account of 'not genuine pre-estimate of loss' however I was under the impression a recent court ruling made this no longer an option. I am also aware of the rule changes from a couple of years ago which meant the RK could be pursued for fines so ignoring is not ideal.
As a matter of principle I'm not giving these clowns £100 for parking in my own allocated space. I'll look into a POPLA appeal, seems to me that they've changed the site to 'streamline' things though it's most likely I'd choose the 'parked in an area you were free to park' and explain the extenuating circumstances.
What are your thoughts chaps? POPLA appeal? Ignore? Letter to tell them to f
k off? Suffice to say, I'm not a happy bunny over this. The PPC in your case is a minnow. It has only been in existence for 3 years and 3 months (formed shortly after PoFA 2012 came into effect).
The most recent accounts show the asset value won't even buy a new Ford Mondeo, little cash at bank, a poor debtor/creditor ratio, and negative shareholder equity.
ETA.
The registered address is semi-detached house. The PPC is breaching the law by using a PO Box number (with a different postcode) on its website.
https://www.gov.uk/running-a-limited-company/signs...
https://www.smallfirmsservices.com/news/legal-requ...
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2008/495/regula...
Edited by Red Devil on Wednesday 2nd March 14:42
PurpleMoonlight said:
DanL said:
End of the day, the OP has been correctly ticketed.
Has it though.Does a third party have the right to impose a parking contract on someone who is legally entitled to park in that space by way of their tenancy agreement?
DanL said:
ost management companies say that they won't get involved with disputes for this very reason... I would imagine that the OP's one is the same, although it might be worth a try.
End of the day, the OP has been correctly ticketed. Could they reverse the ticket? I'm sure they could. Will they? Probably not - tickets are how they make their living, like it or not, and so with something as cut and dried as this you'd have to assume they'll stick to their guns.
It's almost universal that the management company appoint the parking company, not the landowner, so of course the management company are not interested in helping - they are taking a cut from each ticket issued, and more than likely a brown envelope to appoint the sharks in the first place. I've seen enough POPLA evidence packs to confirm that £20 per ticket is a typical "commission"/bung paid back to management companies.End of the day, the OP has been correctly ticketed. Could they reverse the ticket? I'm sure they could. Will they? Probably not - tickets are how they make their living, like it or not, and so with something as cut and dried as this you'd have to assume they'll stick to their guns.
I've also got enough POPLA successes to confirm that a tenancy agreement will indeed cancel out any tickets issued, but car owners should not have to jump through so many hoops, and wade through the BS and threats to get to this decision.
Thank you all for taking the time to reply, very much appreciated. 
Some on here in other threads have shown to have sympathy for private parking companies but I think this is a reasonable example of their 'titude' (y+attitude).
Hopefully tomorrow I'll get a chance to look at the lease and ascertain the situation. Will update with the info.
Note also that the parking company have been extra sneaky in that the appeal rejection lacks a date so I'm not sure how much time I've got left on the POPLA appeal. I believe it has to be done within 28 days of appeal rejection. Postmarked 4/2/16 though. (
) Unfortunately I've been away on honeymoon so not had the opportunity to deal with this earlier.
Thanks again for all your help chaps
Some on here in other threads have shown to have sympathy for private parking companies but I think this is a reasonable example of their '
titude' (y+attitude).Hopefully tomorrow I'll get a chance to look at the lease and ascertain the situation. Will update with the info.
Note also that the parking company have been extra sneaky in that the appeal rejection lacks a date so I'm not sure how much time I've got left on the POPLA appeal. I believe it has to be done within 28 days of appeal rejection. Postmarked 4/2/16 though. (
) Unfortunately I've been away on honeymoon so not had the opportunity to deal with this earlier.Thanks again for all your help chaps
Chaps, an update:
1) I have gone through the tenancy agreement.
The only mention of parking is:
"Where Residential or Permit parking is required it is the tenants full responsibility to obtain the new permit. No responsibility will be taken by the landlord or landlords agent for tenants not obtaining said permit".
There is no mention in the tenancy agreement regarding the obligation to display permits or that they are mandatory. There is no mention of fines for non display of permits.
2) I have a copy of the inventory for the property which states/confirms my allotted parking space.
3) I have discussed the case with the management company who have essentially washed their hands of it. 'Didn't display permit, not our problem'. I am unsurprised.
Here is the signs on display in the car park:
(Sorry if it is displayed incorrectly, photobucket playing up)
What do you reckon? Appeal via POPLA with the above information? As mentioned, I sure as fk am not paying these clowns £100 to park in my own space!
1) I have gone through the tenancy agreement.
The only mention of parking is:
"Where Residential or Permit parking is required it is the tenants full responsibility to obtain the new permit. No responsibility will be taken by the landlord or landlords agent for tenants not obtaining said permit".
There is no mention in the tenancy agreement regarding the obligation to display permits or that they are mandatory. There is no mention of fines for non display of permits.
2) I have a copy of the inventory for the property which states/confirms my allotted parking space.
3) I have discussed the case with the management company who have essentially washed their hands of it. 'Didn't display permit, not our problem'. I am unsurprised.
Here is the signs on display in the car park:
(Sorry if it is displayed incorrectly, photobucket playing up
)What do you reckon? Appeal via POPLA with the above information? As mentioned, I sure as f
k am not paying these clowns £100 to park in my own space!Edited by g3org3y on Thursday 3rd March 12:18
DanL said:
Most management companies say that they won't get involved with disputes for this very reason... I would imagine that the OP's one is the same, although it might be worth a try.
End of the day, the OP has been correctly ticketed. Could they reverse the ticket? I'm sure they could. Will they? Probably not - tickets are how they make their living, like it or not, and so with something as cut and dried as this you'd have to assume they'll stick to their guns.
But also at the end of the next day the management company has flats becoming available that they want to let or sell. If word is out that residents are regularly getting ticketed for minor transgressions and having to fight through the courts to park in a space that they have already paid for then those flats will be less attractive than others with no such problems.End of the day, the OP has been correctly ticketed. Could they reverse the ticket? I'm sure they could. Will they? Probably not - tickets are how they make their living, like it or not, and so with something as cut and dried as this you'd have to assume they'll stick to their guns.
Just make sure that your issues will surface in a google search for the address of the flats.
g3org3y said:
Chaps, an update:
1) I have gone through the tenancy agreement.
The only mention of parking is:
"Where Residential or Permit parking is required it is the tenants full responsibility to obtain the new permit. No responsibility will be taken by the landlord or landlords agent for tenants not obtaining said permit".
There is no mention in the tenancy agreement regarding the obligation to display permits or that they are mandatory. There is no mention of fines for non display of permits.
2) I have a copy of the inventory for the property which states/confirms my allotted parking space.
3) I have discussed the case with the management company who have essentially washed their hands of it. 'Didn't display permit, not our problem'. I am unsurprised.
What do you reckon? Appeal via POPLA with the above information? As mentioned, I sure as fk am not paying these clowns £100 to park in my own space!
Your lease clearly states that if a permit is required to park in the space provided then you need to obtain it.1) I have gone through the tenancy agreement.
The only mention of parking is:
"Where Residential or Permit parking is required it is the tenants full responsibility to obtain the new permit. No responsibility will be taken by the landlord or landlords agent for tenants not obtaining said permit".
There is no mention in the tenancy agreement regarding the obligation to display permits or that they are mandatory. There is no mention of fines for non display of permits.
2) I have a copy of the inventory for the property which states/confirms my allotted parking space.
3) I have discussed the case with the management company who have essentially washed their hands of it. 'Didn't display permit, not our problem'. I am unsurprised.
What do you reckon? Appeal via POPLA with the above information? As mentioned, I sure as f
k am not paying these clowns £100 to park in my own space!When you did, did you receive any terms and conditions regarding its use and specifically the display and consequences of non display?
If not, then the PPC must rely on the signage, which makes it clear a displayed permit or permission is required to park. You didn't.
If it went to court, I fear you would lose.
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