Rolling notice of redundancy - any expert views out there?
Discussion
Hi all, wondering if there are any employment law / HR types on here that may be able to give some advice about what's proving to be quite a difficult / wearing situation?
I'm really not inclined to start a legal process as I'm hoping to stay with my current employer but am hoping someone on here may be able to provide some professional reassurance that what I've been told is reasonable/e / usual practice. The advice in this forum seems to be pretty good.
My situation is as follows:
- I was part of a group of individuals all with the same role in Division A. Those of us in permanent roles were given notice of redundancy in 2013.
- I was immediately offered and then started a temporary assignment with the same employer but in Division B, and have continued to work on a series of temporary assignments until now - all of the assignments are at my current grade and I've performed well in those despite effectively working under a rolling notice of redundancy and the constant uncertainty that goes with that.
- Division B has set my annual objectives and reviewed my performance for the last 3 years.
- I am approaching the end of my current temporary assignment in Division B and am effectively working my notice while I try to secure my next role - there are very few permanent roles but lots of secondments and an army of contractors.
- I was approached pro actively by a manager in Division C and initially told he could offer me a lower graded role but on a "Personal Grade" with the result my salary / benefits would remain unchanged. There's a desire to get the role re-graded to my current role in the future but this cannot be guaranteed.
Here's the complication:
- HR in Division C have said they are not allowed to offer me a temporary assignment with a personal grade for the role because I am "at risk" of redundancy and have already worked a temporary assignment.
- HR in Division C have said this would NOT apply to someone who isn't at risk - so although the job is the same, another candidate with the same current pay / grade as me could be offered it providing they are not under notice.
- I have been subsequently offered the role as a permanent position but at the lower grade / salary.
- HR in Division B interviewed me for a role 2 months ago for which I would be offered a personal grade i.e. no pay cut. despite telling me other HR people in division B advising this isn't possible under the new rules.
- HR in Division A, B and C all say they are consistently applying a new policy on temporary assignments but have been unwilling / unable to share it and it doesn't feel very consistent from my perspective.
- HR are not willing to put in writing a statement to the effect all UK employees are being treated consistently, and the "new rules" they are required to impose on me are being applied without exception.
It's probably worth saying that I'm seen as a "strong performer" and this has remained the case through three years of constantly working my notice only to get it renewed again at the last minute - and my current pay is in line with other roles that have similar responsibility. I'm also not "making waves" about this as that probably won't ultimately help me to secure my next role.
What I'd like to know if anyone can answer is:
1. Have I become established as an "employee" in Division B by virtue of time served and irrespective of the rolling redundancy notice?
2. Does the redundancy notice still stand when it is served by Division A and I've had no contact with Division A for more than 3 years?
3. Is it usual practice to effectively force people at risk to take a lower pay for a role than someone who isn't at risk and will deliver the same things and have the same experience?
4. Is this just the way the world works now / should I just suck it up?
We've got a child on the way in the next few weeks so my main motivation for staying with my current employer is maintaining some degree of work / life balance. I could easily secure a role externally but in all likelihood would be at risk of very regular travel / time away from home and want to be around for my child and to support my partner.
I'm really not inclined to start a legal process as I'm hoping to stay with my current employer but am hoping someone on here may be able to provide some professional reassurance that what I've been told is reasonable/e / usual practice. The advice in this forum seems to be pretty good.
My situation is as follows:
- I was part of a group of individuals all with the same role in Division A. Those of us in permanent roles were given notice of redundancy in 2013.
- I was immediately offered and then started a temporary assignment with the same employer but in Division B, and have continued to work on a series of temporary assignments until now - all of the assignments are at my current grade and I've performed well in those despite effectively working under a rolling notice of redundancy and the constant uncertainty that goes with that.
- Division B has set my annual objectives and reviewed my performance for the last 3 years.
- I am approaching the end of my current temporary assignment in Division B and am effectively working my notice while I try to secure my next role - there are very few permanent roles but lots of secondments and an army of contractors.
- I was approached pro actively by a manager in Division C and initially told he could offer me a lower graded role but on a "Personal Grade" with the result my salary / benefits would remain unchanged. There's a desire to get the role re-graded to my current role in the future but this cannot be guaranteed.
Here's the complication:
- HR in Division C have said they are not allowed to offer me a temporary assignment with a personal grade for the role because I am "at risk" of redundancy and have already worked a temporary assignment.
- HR in Division C have said this would NOT apply to someone who isn't at risk - so although the job is the same, another candidate with the same current pay / grade as me could be offered it providing they are not under notice.
- I have been subsequently offered the role as a permanent position but at the lower grade / salary.
- HR in Division B interviewed me for a role 2 months ago for which I would be offered a personal grade i.e. no pay cut. despite telling me other HR people in division B advising this isn't possible under the new rules.
- HR in Division A, B and C all say they are consistently applying a new policy on temporary assignments but have been unwilling / unable to share it and it doesn't feel very consistent from my perspective.
- HR are not willing to put in writing a statement to the effect all UK employees are being treated consistently, and the "new rules" they are required to impose on me are being applied without exception.
It's probably worth saying that I'm seen as a "strong performer" and this has remained the case through three years of constantly working my notice only to get it renewed again at the last minute - and my current pay is in line with other roles that have similar responsibility. I'm also not "making waves" about this as that probably won't ultimately help me to secure my next role.
What I'd like to know if anyone can answer is:
1. Have I become established as an "employee" in Division B by virtue of time served and irrespective of the rolling redundancy notice?
2. Does the redundancy notice still stand when it is served by Division A and I've had no contact with Division A for more than 3 years?
3. Is it usual practice to effectively force people at risk to take a lower pay for a role than someone who isn't at risk and will deliver the same things and have the same experience?
4. Is this just the way the world works now / should I just suck it up?
We've got a child on the way in the next few weeks so my main motivation for staying with my current employer is maintaining some degree of work / life balance. I could easily secure a role externally but in all likelihood would be at risk of very regular travel / time away from home and want to be around for my child and to support my partner.
Regardless of your 'division' which entity is your employer?
All of these divisions can exist under a single entity employer.
Your process seems drawn out and quite ridiculous but I would consider speaking to manager/HR in your existing division/team about a formal transfer to another role in one of these other divisions. This could be considered redeployment and you would then no longer be at risk. I am sure there is a lot more detail you could provide for a better answer though.
All of these divisions can exist under a single entity employer.
Your process seems drawn out and quite ridiculous but I would consider speaking to manager/HR in your existing division/team about a formal transfer to another role in one of these other divisions. This could be considered redeployment and you would then no longer be at risk. I am sure there is a lot more detail you could provide for a better answer though.
Hi edc - thanks. All three entities are part of the same employer - my pay has come from the same legal entity whilst working in Division A and Division B.
Redeployment is not on offer unfortunately - they are basically managing resourcing the business by creating temporary assignments.
Redeployment is not on offer unfortunately - they are basically managing resourcing the business by creating temporary assignments.
I wish breadvan was here and the below is worth what you paid for it, however, my understanding was that employers can't use temporary assignments to sidestep the legislation on employment rights, however, it seems a bit muddled as they didn't actually issue you with a fixed term contract per se, just gave you notice and then rescinded it?
https://www.gov.uk/fixed-term-contracts/employees-...
https://www.gov.uk/fixed-term-contracts/employees-...
Thanks Flooble - I think my situation is a bit different than standard temporary contract as I've now got many years of continuous service with the same employer, albeit the last 3 have been on temporary assignments after a notice of redundancy was served (and is still hanging round my neck like a millstone).
Based on what you have written so far:
1. Have I become established as an "employee" in Division B by virtue of time served and irrespective of the rolling redundancy notice?
Division B isn't an employer. It is the same employer for Division A, B and C so which ever Division you are working in, you are all working for the same legal employer.
2. Does the redundancy notice still stand when it is served by Division A and I've had no contact with Division A for more than 3 years?
If the role is still genuinely at risk then the at risk status will still stand. You haven't divulged what the nature of that communication was, what the business reasons for a redundancy situation were and whether they still exist. It's abnormal to be at risk for such a long period of time but it could be legitimate, it depends on the circumstances.
3. Is it usual practice to effectively force people at risk to take a lower pay for a role than someone who isn't at risk and will deliver the same things and have the same experience?
This may happen for all sorts of reasons and redeployment as part of a redundancy process may be a reason to accept another role on a lower salary.
4. Is this just the way the world works now / should I just suck it up?
Bit of a broad statement, but there's a lot of grey despite a long post in your statement. You've got to establish the facts ti understand the merits of the process being followed. Ultimately, it seems you are paid a decent salary at your expectation and doing a variety of work which you enjoy. You have a contract of employment in place and have served a decent continuous period. If you are ok with the internal mobility then carry on. As long as there is useful work for you to do, work which you enjoy and paid at the salary you want then it's all good. The time that ceases to be the case, you will be shown the door by redundancy or other ...
1. Have I become established as an "employee" in Division B by virtue of time served and irrespective of the rolling redundancy notice?
Division B isn't an employer. It is the same employer for Division A, B and C so which ever Division you are working in, you are all working for the same legal employer.
2. Does the redundancy notice still stand when it is served by Division A and I've had no contact with Division A for more than 3 years?
If the role is still genuinely at risk then the at risk status will still stand. You haven't divulged what the nature of that communication was, what the business reasons for a redundancy situation were and whether they still exist. It's abnormal to be at risk for such a long period of time but it could be legitimate, it depends on the circumstances.
3. Is it usual practice to effectively force people at risk to take a lower pay for a role than someone who isn't at risk and will deliver the same things and have the same experience?
This may happen for all sorts of reasons and redeployment as part of a redundancy process may be a reason to accept another role on a lower salary.
4. Is this just the way the world works now / should I just suck it up?
Bit of a broad statement, but there's a lot of grey despite a long post in your statement. You've got to establish the facts ti understand the merits of the process being followed. Ultimately, it seems you are paid a decent salary at your expectation and doing a variety of work which you enjoy. You have a contract of employment in place and have served a decent continuous period. If you are ok with the internal mobility then carry on. As long as there is useful work for you to do, work which you enjoy and paid at the salary you want then it's all good. The time that ceases to be the case, you will be shown the door by redundancy or other ...
Royce44 said:
why would you want to stay there? they sound like a horrible firm to work for! they have messed you around for the last 3 years get you want to stay for more lol
Perhaps because it's local work with no travel and he likes the people - if only they could straighten up his contractual/redundancy situation.It does sound like it's worth another look at what else is out there as the stress can't be good; also if you wanted to move house for example then this would seriously hamper your mortgage application. In layman's terms, being on notice of redundancy for 3 years is a but silly - either they need you or they don't.
As Royce44 asks, do you really need them?
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