Is TUPE really fairly pointless?

[davek_964]

This is the second time I've been through this in recent years (I've moved jobs in between so different companies).

We get bought by a different company. TUPE means our T&Cs don't change.

A couple of months in, the new company wants to 'harmonise' our benefits - and therefore gives us all new contacts to sign which are essentially new T&Cs on their terms. Even though we are currently 'negotiating' the new terms, it's not really a negotiation.

So TUPE seems to guarantee nothing.

Am I missing the point?

[anothernameitist]

Cynically its not worth much.

Some protection for the employee, but not much at all.

[Flooble]

It's better than nothing but that's about it.

Although did make me laugh when one former employer took on some staff and mistakenly laid them off at the 11 month mark instead of 12 months - meaning they had to honour the original, very generous, contractual redundancy arrangements!

[jogger1976]

In my experience it's not really not that much, as when I was TUPE'd there was, after a brief honeymoon period,massive pressure from the new management to "harmonise" (code for signing a really st contract)
Staff that didn't were treated pretty badly and surprise surprise everyone that had been TUPE'd had resigned/changed jobs within a year.

As a result, if a TUPE was raised again, I would be looking for another job as soon as possible, as terms and conditions will be eroded soon enough.

Edited by jogger1976 on Friday 11th March 12:04

[Doofus]

TUPE gives you continuity of employment. If the new company want to make you redundant after a year, your payout will be based on your total years' service with the previous company as well as this one, rather than just the length of time you've been with Newco.

[DanL]

Doofus said:

TUPE gives you continuity of employment. If the new company want to make you redundant after a year, your payout will be based on your total years' service with the previous company as well as this one, rather than just the length of time you've been with Newco.

This.

Also, I seem to recall you shouldn't have to sign a new contract and agree to new terms, although it's been so long that I may be mistaken here!

[Flooble]

Just remember though that the *statutory* redundancy payouts are not that brilliant unless you've been there for decades. £475 per week, one week per year. So ten years nets you less than £5000 ...

[davek_964]

DanL said:

This.

Also, I seem to recall you shouldn't have to sign a new contract and agree to new terms, although it's been so long that I may be mistaken here!

I remember looking into this when it happened before, and although I think that was true (at least you don't have to sign it by their deadline) I got the impression that the company have to make a "reasonable" effort to resolve the differences (e.g. wait a month and see if you change your mind!) and then could probably get away with kicking you out.

Flooble said:

Just remember though that the *statutory* redundancy payouts are not that brilliant unless you've been there for decades. £475 per week, one week per year. So ten years nets you less than £5000 ...

Surprisingly, this company have actually stated what their redundancy package is and it's pretty generous. So although I don't think any of us are about to be made redundant (and having only been here 18 months it wouldn't be much use to me anyway - the long servers would do well enough.

[edc]

davek_964 said:

Surprisingly, this company have actually stated what their redundancy package is and it's pretty generous. So although I don't think any of us are about to be made redundant (and having only been here 18 months it wouldn't be much use to me anyway - the long servers would do well enough.

Here is the crux. If you don't sing, you will likely find that you will not automatically get the additional 'benefits' the acquiring company have in place. If you do sign then you will. the process of harmonisation is nearly always a trade off. What it shouldn't be though is a lop-sided deal where all most of your T&Cs are effectively downgraded with no benefit coming the other way.

[eliot]

I've experienced it through acquisition and merger couple of times now, no problems and no issue staying on your original contract if you wish to.

[anonymous-user]

Two TUPE myths:-

(1) There is no magic twelve month period post transfer after which a new employer may change the employment terms without adverse consequences. If an employer dismissed someone for refusing to accept such terms, such dismissal would still be connected with the transfer and might be unfair.

(2) It is not TUPE that preserves continuity of employment. This is in fact preserved by Statute. A dull point of pedantry, but there you are.

[Flooble]

Apologies for propagating a myth Breadvan.

My anecdote about the colleague who was made redundant at the 11 month mark wasn't intended to imply that 12 months was magic, just that the incompetent HR department finished him before they had changed his T&Cs which they were doing at the 12 month mark (collective bargaining).

[davek_964]

Breadvan72 said:

Two TUPE myths:-

(1) There is no magic twelve month period post transfer after which a new employer may change the employment terms without adverse consequences. If an employer dismissed someone for refusing to accept such terms, such dismissal would still be connected with the transfer and might be unfair.

(2) It is not TUPE that preserves continuity of employment. This is in fact preserved by Statute. A dull point of pedantry, but there you are.

Well, we're not even close to 12 months - we were bought in October last year I think. But they want the contracts sorted by Easter, and according to our reps the negotiation basically consists of the new employers saying "No" a lot.

Personally, I'm fairly happy with the new terms - there are some positives, and the negatives are pretty minor for me. But many of the long term people here are not happy.

[davek_964]

Hmm. Just checked - our TUPE is actually still ongoing so the 'harmonisation' is going on in parallel. Surely changing the terms and conditions under a new contract can't happen at the same time that TUPE should be preserving them?

[andburg]

I'm about to TUPE again no issues here.

TUPE From Co1 to Co2 - measures increased life insurance, moved car from business need to contractual benefit, increased overtime rate, increased standby rates, work location changed and pay increased to cover the parking expenses.

About to go back to co1 as they insource us again so I'll be back with all the new contractual benefits.

The only issue I'll have is I'm on a 42.5 hour contract and in my absence they moved everyone down to 37.5 hours so I'll be working more then my new/old colleagues. They're such a big company they aren't bothered by harmonisation.

[edc]

davek_964 said:

Hmm. Just checked - our TUPE is actually still ongoing so the 'harmonisation' is going on in parallel. Surely changing the terms and conditions under a new contract can't happen at the same time that TUPE should be preserving them?

This is very common and a much more efficient way of completing things. Normally, there is some horse trading but often you are better off overall so there is agreement to sign. How successful it is depends on the level of communication and of course the merits of the T&Cs.