Alfa Romeo's Bahn Stormer! Introducing the 164 Cloverleaf
Discussion
I've always been an Alfa Romeo fan, you know what they say, you're not a true Petrolhead until you've owned Alfa Romeo's, well that makes me a veteran Petrolhead and Alfisti then!
They suffer a lot of criticism, some justified from decades prior to the 164 era, the 70's and 80's being my favourite period i have to add, and most purely because the mud stuck thanks to so called domestic motoring press and even our own government got in on the pressure.
One thing i've been grateful of over the years, is that their lack of popularity due to the misguided reputation and misinformed public has kept the prices low for enthusiasts and restorers such as myself, so i've had many bargains over the years, but that also meant that if values were low, many were scrapped instead of saved and cherished.
That rarity is now rearing it's head in another way, and prices are soaring, probably climbing much faster than most other Classics or Retro cars, which is actually just them catching up with the market which is long overdue, and its a shame that there aren't more cars to go round and be appreciated as i do.
Which leads me to my main point and subject of the topic, my own MY94, Alfa Romeo 164 QV 3.0l Quad Cam 24v
Available in quite a few specs, from 2.0l 4 cylinder, through to 2.0 V6 Turbo, and eventually the mighty "Busso" engined 3.0 V6 12v and ultimately the 24v Cloverleaf, and even a awd version in the Q4, this car was Alfa and Pininfarina's answer to the 3 and 5 series BMW and similar Mercedes models etc, and built rather uniquely as the Flagship in the Italian line up.
Designed with an extremely low drag coefficient in mind and a healthy 235bhp motor in my own QV model, they can move, and Busso's engine design doesn't fail in one of the best V6 power and torque deliveries ever designed. The motor alone is an engineering masterpiece, very well reputed amongst the powerplant design hierachy, and is as reliable and strong as it is exciting.
The essential floorplan design was to be shared with Lancia's Thema, and even Saab's 9000 series, although they all ended up as quite different vehicles overall, and share few common parts.
The inner and outer aesthetics are purposely "quirky", it wouldn't be an Alfa if it wasn't notably different in many ways to the norm, but that achieves a limited popularity, even amongst the previously purist Alfa fans who believe the best cars to come out of the Alfa minds ceased at the rear wheel drive 75's.
But the truth is, the 164 is brilliant, and fulfilled all its design criteria, and did in fact sell well in all its targeted markets. The US lapped it up, and across Europe there was little delay in orders and units leaving the factories and showrooms. The UK had limited numbers in comparison to its German competitors of course, particularly of the bigger engined models, which is a shame, because its brilliant!
My own 164 QV, the top of the line 2wd version, as mentioned comes with a well developed 3.0litre over square quad cam 24 valve Busso designed motor, running a Bosch Motorinc efi, and making around 235bhp. The performance is very solid, and almost class topping, with 0-60mph in around 7 seconds dead, and high top cruise speed thanks to that drag coefficient and the beautifully breathing motor.
Alfa manged to build into the front wheel drive arrangement a reasonable dose of torque steer to keep you awake and hands gripping the wheel firmly if you set off in a big hurry, but once rolling it settles and behaves impeccably. Auto and Sports switchable suspension is standard on my model, and does make a notable difference to the well mannered handling, and prevents the car from feeling its size completely.
Leather and electrics everywhere, these are very well equipped too, and enough buttons, bells and whistles to keep Mr Sulu busy!
So, if you want a retro, appreciating future classic with a big difference to the normal European rivals, the 164 QV should be high on the shopping list.
My own car is a little personalised, sitting a little lower, sporting some BBS LM style 18's, and a full stainless exhaust to let the Busso Sing! They offer a brilliant alternative to the norm, and are climbing the value tables quickly as numbers are low and folk realise what they missed out on when they bought their boring BMW 525i instead! (sorry Beemer fans!)
I wonder with some trepidation where the conversation will go from here, but hey, if I don't shout about the 164's forgotten virtues, there aren't many others out there that will....
They suffer a lot of criticism, some justified from decades prior to the 164 era, the 70's and 80's being my favourite period i have to add, and most purely because the mud stuck thanks to so called domestic motoring press and even our own government got in on the pressure.
One thing i've been grateful of over the years, is that their lack of popularity due to the misguided reputation and misinformed public has kept the prices low for enthusiasts and restorers such as myself, so i've had many bargains over the years, but that also meant that if values were low, many were scrapped instead of saved and cherished.
That rarity is now rearing it's head in another way, and prices are soaring, probably climbing much faster than most other Classics or Retro cars, which is actually just them catching up with the market which is long overdue, and its a shame that there aren't more cars to go round and be appreciated as i do.
Which leads me to my main point and subject of the topic, my own MY94, Alfa Romeo 164 QV 3.0l Quad Cam 24v
Available in quite a few specs, from 2.0l 4 cylinder, through to 2.0 V6 Turbo, and eventually the mighty "Busso" engined 3.0 V6 12v and ultimately the 24v Cloverleaf, and even a awd version in the Q4, this car was Alfa and Pininfarina's answer to the 3 and 5 series BMW and similar Mercedes models etc, and built rather uniquely as the Flagship in the Italian line up.
Designed with an extremely low drag coefficient in mind and a healthy 235bhp motor in my own QV model, they can move, and Busso's engine design doesn't fail in one of the best V6 power and torque deliveries ever designed. The motor alone is an engineering masterpiece, very well reputed amongst the powerplant design hierachy, and is as reliable and strong as it is exciting.
The essential floorplan design was to be shared with Lancia's Thema, and even Saab's 9000 series, although they all ended up as quite different vehicles overall, and share few common parts.
The inner and outer aesthetics are purposely "quirky", it wouldn't be an Alfa if it wasn't notably different in many ways to the norm, but that achieves a limited popularity, even amongst the previously purist Alfa fans who believe the best cars to come out of the Alfa minds ceased at the rear wheel drive 75's.
But the truth is, the 164 is brilliant, and fulfilled all its design criteria, and did in fact sell well in all its targeted markets. The US lapped it up, and across Europe there was little delay in orders and units leaving the factories and showrooms. The UK had limited numbers in comparison to its German competitors of course, particularly of the bigger engined models, which is a shame, because its brilliant!
My own 164 QV, the top of the line 2wd version, as mentioned comes with a well developed 3.0litre over square quad cam 24 valve Busso designed motor, running a Bosch Motorinc efi, and making around 235bhp. The performance is very solid, and almost class topping, with 0-60mph in around 7 seconds dead, and high top cruise speed thanks to that drag coefficient and the beautifully breathing motor.
Alfa manged to build into the front wheel drive arrangement a reasonable dose of torque steer to keep you awake and hands gripping the wheel firmly if you set off in a big hurry, but once rolling it settles and behaves impeccably. Auto and Sports switchable suspension is standard on my model, and does make a notable difference to the well mannered handling, and prevents the car from feeling its size completely.
Leather and electrics everywhere, these are very well equipped too, and enough buttons, bells and whistles to keep Mr Sulu busy!
So, if you want a retro, appreciating future classic with a big difference to the normal European rivals, the 164 QV should be high on the shopping list.
My own car is a little personalised, sitting a little lower, sporting some BBS LM style 18's, and a full stainless exhaust to let the Busso Sing! They offer a brilliant alternative to the norm, and are climbing the value tables quickly as numbers are low and folk realise what they missed out on when they bought their boring BMW 525i instead! (sorry Beemer fans!)
I wonder with some trepidation where the conversation will go from here, but hey, if I don't shout about the 164's forgotten virtues, there aren't many others out there that will....
Edited by rimguy on Tuesday 15th March 12:59
Great car & you are justifiably proud.
You will have to correct me if this is complete nonsense but I recall many years ago, a friend looking to buy a 3 litre 164.
He wanted a second-hand one, about 3 years old - but could not find one for love nor money.
Eventually he discovered that Alfa had only sold 16 in the UK that particular year...
He gave up and bought a Saab 9000
You will have to correct me if this is complete nonsense but I recall many years ago, a friend looking to buy a 3 litre 164.
He wanted a second-hand one, about 3 years old - but could not find one for love nor money.
Eventually he discovered that Alfa had only sold 16 in the UK that particular year...
He gave up and bought a Saab 9000
That's a gorgeous car! These old Alfas are really growing on me, which is a shame because as you say, they're getting pretty rare and pretty pricey now!
I'm hoping to capitalise on their reputation soon though and pick up a 156 if/when time/money allow. They're still fairly cheap, and I hope just as good a steer.
I'm hoping to capitalise on their reputation soon though and pick up a 156 if/when time/money allow. They're still fairly cheap, and I hope just as good a steer.
Edited by samj2014 on Tuesday 15th March 22:03
Hi Sam
Thanks for the compliments and comments.
Yes, these are getting pricey, in fact mine is up for grabs very shortly i have to admit, as other Alfa projects currently suffer a much needed cash injection and this is the readiest i have for sale i'm sad to say.
On the subject of 156's, having owned a few and worked on many, i feel i could comment accurately on them as far as a buyers guide if you wish?
Just give me a holla when you're ready...
Thanks for the compliments and comments.
Yes, these are getting pricey, in fact mine is up for grabs very shortly i have to admit, as other Alfa projects currently suffer a much needed cash injection and this is the readiest i have for sale i'm sad to say.
On the subject of 156's, having owned a few and worked on many, i feel i could comment accurately on them as far as a buyers guide if you wish?
Just give me a holla when you're ready...
Edited by rimguy on Wednesday 16th March 09:35
These are soaring in value? Seriously? Always thought of them as bargain basement - or being sold for a few hundred quid to be broken for spares on eBay (plenty on there like this right now).
Edited to add: or have I inadvertently stumbled into a value boosting ad?
Good luck with the sale, but stay realistic
Edited to add: or have I inadvertently stumbled into a value boosting ad?
Good luck with the sale, but stay realistic
Edited by drmark on Wednesday 16th March 11:25
Value boosting advert, well, it all helps!
My own car is similarly priced to other European qv's but theyre lhd, at around 5k but currently thats a price only being achieved by the very good cars, but there are still some bargains to be had if you can take your time and work on them a bit.
My own car is similarly priced to other European qv's but theyre lhd, at around 5k but currently thats a price only being achieved by the very good cars, but there are still some bargains to be had if you can take your time and work on them a bit.
rimguy said:
Hi Sam
Thanks for the compliments and comments.
Yes, these are getting pricey, in fact mine is up for grabs very shortly i have to admit, as other Alfa projects currently suffer a much needed cash injection and this is the readiest i have for sale i'm sad to say.
On the subject of 156's, having owned a few and worked on many, i feel i could comment accurately on them as far as a buyers guide if you wish?
Just give me a holla when you're ready...
That would be great, thanks! I'll drop you a message to pick your brain at some point.Thanks for the compliments and comments.
Yes, these are getting pricey, in fact mine is up for grabs very shortly i have to admit, as other Alfa projects currently suffer a much needed cash injection and this is the readiest i have for sale i'm sad to say.
On the subject of 156's, having owned a few and worked on many, i feel i could comment accurately on them as far as a buyers guide if you wish?
Just give me a holla when you're ready...
Edited by rimguy on Wednesday 16th March 09:35
I had a 164 3.0 Super Manual facelift, which I got from ebay for £1k when I was at uni. It was a fabulous car and I have been hooked on Alfas ever since. I currently own a 166 3.0 Super as my only car (also brilliant).
I hanker after a 164 Cloverleaf big time.
The busso v6 really is as good as the reputation suggests. Designed to make the user want to rag it as hard as possible, it just sings. The busso v6 basically rewards the driver for seeking more revs.
I think the 164 is one of the best looking saloons of all time, especially with azev alloys on.
I hanker after a 164 Cloverleaf big time.
The busso v6 really is as good as the reputation suggests. Designed to make the user want to rag it as hard as possible, it just sings. The busso v6 basically rewards the driver for seeking more revs.
I think the 164 is one of the best looking saloons of all time, especially with azev alloys on.
Hi mate
I assume the Azev's you refer too are type "A's", and you'd be very correct, they are a lovely wheel on many cars, but would suit the 164 very well.
I did experiment with some similar styled wheels that i'd fully refrubished for my modified Series 3 16v 33 qv, Brock B1's in a big dish 9j all round, and i was very very tempted to go with these instead of the LM styled wheels.
Incidentally, if you crave a 164 QV that much, you can buy mine, but i'm afraid no longer for £1k! lol!
I assume the Azev's you refer too are type "A's", and you'd be very correct, they are a lovely wheel on many cars, but would suit the 164 very well.
I did experiment with some similar styled wheels that i'd fully refrubished for my modified Series 3 16v 33 qv, Brock B1's in a big dish 9j all round, and i was very very tempted to go with these instead of the LM styled wheels.
Incidentally, if you crave a 164 QV that much, you can buy mine, but i'm afraid no longer for £1k! lol!
Yes, i knew that publishing this would eventually raise that thought, and for future values you'd be right too, but i never liked them that much, they weren't that tidy, and i ALWAYS personalise my cars to a point regardless.
They crop up for sale every now and then so i might pick up and refurbish a set fot it.
Just in case!
They crop up for sale every now and then so i might pick up and refurbish a set fot it.
Just in case!
What a great post rimguy!!
The guy who I bought my 90 from has a 164 Q4 in Rosso Alfa which does look good, he too me out and I was quite surprised in how well she got down the road tbh, I weren't surprised about the noise though as I've owned the 3.2 Busso previously.
Your 164 Cloverleaf looks absolutely spot on, if I had the money and space then I wouldn't hesitate one bit.
Have you thought about keeping her and possibly storing her somewhere? Long term might be worthwhile?
The guy who I bought my 90 from has a 164 Q4 in Rosso Alfa which does look good, he too me out and I was quite surprised in how well she got down the road tbh, I weren't surprised about the noise though as I've owned the 3.2 Busso previously.
Your 164 Cloverleaf looks absolutely spot on, if I had the money and space then I wouldn't hesitate one bit.
Have you thought about keeping her and possibly storing her somewhere? Long term might be worthwhile?
Lovely stuff! I can't remember when I last saw a 164 of any model. I have a 147 itch that needs scratching ATM; I some years ago had a 2 litre selespeed with red leather and loved it. However the box was misbehaving something chronic, so when the dealer got it semi behaving under warranty it had to go, I just knew it was going to be nothing but trouble from that point on.
Gassing Station | Classic Cars and Yesterday's Heroes | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff