Discussion
I have had trouble again trying to start three old classics from the 1960s after a Winter break.
All have six cylinders and over 3 litres but positive earth. Two have electronic ignition
They all fire once and kick out the starter. After five minutes of this only one suddenly caught a few cylinders and then ran perfectly smoothly. Last year same thing and I drained out the fuel and put fresh fuel in and they started first time.
I put the dead fuel in a modern Volvo and it ran ok but there was no power for overtaking.
Is there an additive that would replace the lost kick in the fuel?
I gather that over the Winter the ethers and esters that they put in the fuel to give it the extra kick, all evaporate. This is why many of you will have experienced difficulty in starting your mower for the first Spring cut.
I can syphon off the petrol again but it is a bit of a faff.
All have six cylinders and over 3 litres but positive earth. Two have electronic ignition
They all fire once and kick out the starter. After five minutes of this only one suddenly caught a few cylinders and then ran perfectly smoothly. Last year same thing and I drained out the fuel and put fresh fuel in and they started first time.
I put the dead fuel in a modern Volvo and it ran ok but there was no power for overtaking.
Is there an additive that would replace the lost kick in the fuel?
I gather that over the Winter the ethers and esters that they put in the fuel to give it the extra kick, all evaporate. This is why many of you will have experienced difficulty in starting your mower for the first Spring cut.
I can syphon off the petrol again but it is a bit of a faff.
'tis a funny thing but some folk find fuel goes off quickly in a couple of (cold) months but others don't have any trouble after longer inactivity. Famous last words, but my old cars seem to allow me to be of the latter kind.
If you were to store fuel in a well-vented tank in warm conditions the lighter fractions would evaporate which would lead to problems starting from cold, but once started power should not be affected.
PS my mowers have never been much of a problem after a winter off.
If you were to store fuel in a well-vented tank in warm conditions the lighter fractions would evaporate which would lead to problems starting from cold, but once started power should not be affected.
PS my mowers have never been much of a problem after a winter off.
Edited by Allan L on Thursday 17th March 23:55
I think I have posted before about our Little Grey Fergie 1950 (Classic!) petrol.
I have used it for mowing for many years with no trouble but a couple of years ago it stalled on me on a hot day.
I was trying to discover the problem when I heard a loud hissing coming from the fuel cap pin hole breather.
I slowly unscrewed the cap and it flew out of my hands and I was covered with a plume of petrol which thankfully did not ignite.
On inspecting the fuel in the tank, which is situated over the engine, I was amazed to see the petrol boiling. However I was able to rest the back of my hand on the tank which was only about blood temperature.
By the time the mechanic came out about ten minutes later it was still boiling.
Went back to it after a couple of hours and it started but soon stopped again with the same symptoms.
Time for an experiment. I put some of the fuel into a milk bottle, put the milk bottle in an electric kettle full of water, put the kettle out in the middle of the yard on a long lead and turned on the switch
I had a laser gun digital thermometer and sure enough big bloppy bubbles started to appear at 35 degreesC
I left the kettle on and at about 90 degrees C there were a lot of much finer bubbles as the petrol started to boil properly.
Thank you John for pointing me in the direction of the Frost stabilser which I shall definitely try
http://www.frost.co.uk/sta-bil-fuel-preservative-s...
Looking into this further it turns out that there are a lot of ethers and esters they put in petrol to make it work and the various fuel companies do not reveal what they put in so there is much variation.
Over Winter or long periods of time some of these volatile chemicals evaporate and some it seems are worse than others,
Modern fuel injection with electronic ignition copes all right but the poor old Lucas systems it seems are right on the limit.
I have used it for mowing for many years with no trouble but a couple of years ago it stalled on me on a hot day.
I was trying to discover the problem when I heard a loud hissing coming from the fuel cap pin hole breather.
I slowly unscrewed the cap and it flew out of my hands and I was covered with a plume of petrol which thankfully did not ignite.
On inspecting the fuel in the tank, which is situated over the engine, I was amazed to see the petrol boiling. However I was able to rest the back of my hand on the tank which was only about blood temperature.
By the time the mechanic came out about ten minutes later it was still boiling.
Went back to it after a couple of hours and it started but soon stopped again with the same symptoms.
Time for an experiment. I put some of the fuel into a milk bottle, put the milk bottle in an electric kettle full of water, put the kettle out in the middle of the yard on a long lead and turned on the switch
I had a laser gun digital thermometer and sure enough big bloppy bubbles started to appear at 35 degreesC
I left the kettle on and at about 90 degrees C there were a lot of much finer bubbles as the petrol started to boil properly.
Thank you John for pointing me in the direction of the Frost stabilser which I shall definitely try
http://www.frost.co.uk/sta-bil-fuel-preservative-s...
Looking into this further it turns out that there are a lot of ethers and esters they put in petrol to make it work and the various fuel companies do not reveal what they put in so there is much variation.
Over Winter or long periods of time some of these volatile chemicals evaporate and some it seems are worse than others,
Modern fuel injection with electronic ignition copes all right but the poor old Lucas systems it seems are right on the limit.
Allan L said:
'tis a funny thing but some folk find fuel goes off quickly in a couple of (cold) months but others don't have any trouble after longer inactivity. Famous last words, but my old cars seem to allow me to be of the latter kind.
Vanin said:
Over Winter or long periods of time some of these volatile chemicals evaporate and some it seems are worse than others,
Modern fuel injection with electronic ignition copes all right but the poor old Lucas systems it seems are right on the limit.
Or is it even simpler than that, and the cars that can't "cope" as well just have ignition that needs a bloody-good going-over? Plugs, HT leads, dist cap and rotor, points/condenser, coil all benefit from periodic replacement. Wiring and connections corrode, giving voltage drop.Modern fuel injection with electronic ignition copes all right but the poor old Lucas systems it seems are right on the limit.
I recall reading somewhere that one of the additives in modern fuel is included to aid starting, and it's also the one that goes "off" quickest. So a bit of fresh petrol can help to start the car, at which point it will often run well enough on the older stuff. Though that doesn't tie with the OPs comment about the old petrol not running well in the modern car.
I never drain the tank in my Riley 1.5 because I always intend to drive it at least once a month throughout the winter, depending on the weather and road conditions. Most years I've managed to do this though once before, due to illness, I was unable to use it from October to April. To my total surprise, after all those months in an unheated garage with no trickle charger on the battery, nor any booster charger attached, it fired up after a couple of attempts and ran perfectly on October's fuel.
I've never found 'over-wintered' fuel to be a problem in the seven years I've owned it so I'm as sure as I can be that when I go to my garage this weekend, it'll start - just like it always does (I hope!)...
I've never found 'over-wintered' fuel to be a problem in the seven years I've owned it so I'm as sure as I can be that when I go to my garage this weekend, it'll start - just like it always does (I hope!)...
I've had this problem on the vintage cars and lawn mowers. Runs fine for a while, leave for two weeks and won't start or if it does runs really rough.
Started using "super" grade petrol and the problem has gone away, seems to be something to do with the amount of ethanol added these days apparently. I did start to read up about it but then decided I had better things to do with my life.
Still waiting for the new Blur album called "Modern petrol is rubbish".
Started using "super" grade petrol and the problem has gone away, seems to be something to do with the amount of ethanol added these days apparently. I did start to read up about it but then decided I had better things to do with my life.
Still waiting for the new Blur album called "Modern petrol is rubbish".
droopsnoot said:
I recall reading somewhere that one of the additives in modern fuel is included to aid starting, and it's also the one that goes "off" quickest. So a bit of fresh petrol can help to start the car, at which point it will often run well enough on the older stuff. Though that doesn't tie with the OPs comment about the old petrol not running well in the modern car.
I am not 100% sure about the last comment as it was my wife who complained about the Volvo having no overtaking power (210 hp XC70) and I have been banned from dumping old fuel in that car! It did run smoothly though and the same applies to two of the old classics that once they did fire after many minutes of cranking they ran smoothly and start all right.They have red rotors and electronic ignition and new leads and a new coil and cap so I would hope that the electrics are ok.
I think I need to find a brand of fuel which does not have these problems as it has different or less volatile additives. Which is where you lot can help as perhaps we may find out the bad brands by bad starting reports here.
I will also try the Frost additive.
I filled up both my old V8 Merc and my Porsche 944 Turbo with Esso 97 for the last couple of tanks before putting them to bed for the winter and they've both sprung into life perfectly after three months lying fallow. Esso 97 in the North of England is one of the few fuels which still tests as effectively ethanol-free, which may help.
I use brake cleaner when the petrol has gone stale. I have a motorcycle workshop,and the bike tanks are smaller so the fuel tends to go off quicker than in a big tank like a car.
A little squirt of brake cleaner in the filter fires it up,and a splosh of it in the tank re-juvinates partially evaporated fuel.
A little squirt of brake cleaner in the filter fires it up,and a splosh of it in the tank re-juvinates partially evaporated fuel.
We had -17 in January two winters running. The cars are stored in a wooden garage, no heating, but each in a Carcoon. Last week I got the E-type out and it fired first time no problem. Sure, if it is cold, it fires on two, coughs, fires on four, then with a bit of gentle persuasion runs smoothly on all six. I really, since this new-fangled fuel was invented, have never really had a problem. Of course, it you have points did you check to see if they had closed up over the winter before trying to start the car? Just a thought.
I've had no starting trouble over winter, I try to run it every month but it's been more like every couple of months this time. It takes a bit of cranking to get it to cough into action, but that's the same if it's only been sat for a few days. Last fuel went in it from Sainsburys at the end of last August.
droopsnoot said:
I recall reading somewhere that one of the additives in modern fuel is included to aid starting, and it's also the one that goes "off" quickest. So a bit of fresh petrol can help to start the car, at which point it will often run well enough on the older stuff. Though that doesn't tie with the OPs comment about the old petrol not running well in the modern car.
Its Butane - a gas - bubbled into the liquid. Modern petrol is like lemonade - and goes flat like lemonade.woodypup59 said:
Its Butane - a gas - bubbled into the liquid. Modern petrol is like lemonade - and goes flat like lemonade.
Don't be daft. Any butane bubbled into the liquid would be out of there before you'd got the filler cap back on.Butane is basically LPG or CampingGaz. If you had that bubbling out of petrol as it was being pumped, you'd have petrol stations being blown sky-high on a daily basis.
Vanin said:
I think I have posted before about our Little Grey Fergie 1950 (Classic!) petrol.
I have used it for mowing for many years with no trouble but a couple of years ago it stalled on me on a hot day.
I was trying to discover the problem when I heard a loud hissing coming from the fuel cap pin hole breather.
I slowly unscrewed the cap and it flew out of my hands and I was covered with a plume of petrol which thankfully did not ignite.
On inspecting the fuel in the tank, which is situated over the engine, I was amazed to see the petrol boiling. However I was able to rest the back of my hand on the tank which was only about blood temperature.
By the time the mechanic came out about ten minutes later it was still boiling.
Went back to it after a couple of hours and it started but soon stopped again with the same symptoms.
I had a similar thing with a Ducati, I filles the tank at a petrol station about 100m from where I was going for lunch. Parked the bike in the sun, after about 40 mins someone from the hotel car park came and found me and told me about fuel puddle under the bike.
It was a v hot summer day, I imagine the fuel having been stored under ground was way cooler and presumably expanded as it warmed up and came out of the overflow pipe
Time for an experiment. I put some of the fuel into a milk bottle, put the milk bottle in an electric kettle full of water, put the kettle out in the middle of the yard on a long lead and turned on the switch
I had a laser gun digital thermometer and sure enough big bloppy bubbles started to appear at 35 degreesC
I left the kettle on and at about 90 degrees C there were a lot of much finer bubbles as the petrol started to boil properly.
Thank you John for pointing me in the direction of the Frost stabilser which I shall definitely try
http://www.frost.co.uk/sta-bil-fuel-preservative-s...
Looking into this further it turns out that there are a lot of ethers and esters they put in petrol to make it work and the various fuel companies do not reveal what they put in so there is much variation.
Over Winter or long periods of time some of these volatile chemicals evaporate and some it seems are worse than others,
Modern fuel injection with electronic ignition copes all right but the poor old Lucas systems it seems are right on the limit.
I have used it for mowing for many years with no trouble but a couple of years ago it stalled on me on a hot day.
I was trying to discover the problem when I heard a loud hissing coming from the fuel cap pin hole breather.
I slowly unscrewed the cap and it flew out of my hands and I was covered with a plume of petrol which thankfully did not ignite.
On inspecting the fuel in the tank, which is situated over the engine, I was amazed to see the petrol boiling. However I was able to rest the back of my hand on the tank which was only about blood temperature.
By the time the mechanic came out about ten minutes later it was still boiling.
Went back to it after a couple of hours and it started but soon stopped again with the same symptoms.
I had a similar thing with a Ducati, I filles the tank at a petrol station about 100m from where I was going for lunch. Parked the bike in the sun, after about 40 mins someone from the hotel car park came and found me and told me about fuel puddle under the bike.
It was a v hot summer day, I imagine the fuel having been stored under ground was way cooler and presumably expanded as it warmed up and came out of the overflow pipe
Time for an experiment. I put some of the fuel into a milk bottle, put the milk bottle in an electric kettle full of water, put the kettle out in the middle of the yard on a long lead and turned on the switch
I had a laser gun digital thermometer and sure enough big bloppy bubbles started to appear at 35 degreesC
I left the kettle on and at about 90 degrees C there were a lot of much finer bubbles as the petrol started to boil properly.
Thank you John for pointing me in the direction of the Frost stabilser which I shall definitely try
http://www.frost.co.uk/sta-bil-fuel-preservative-s...
Looking into this further it turns out that there are a lot of ethers and esters they put in petrol to make it work and the various fuel companies do not reveal what they put in so there is much variation.
Over Winter or long periods of time some of these volatile chemicals evaporate and some it seems are worse than others,
Modern fuel injection with electronic ignition copes all right but the poor old Lucas systems it seems are right on the limit.
A company I worked for previously used a lot of 2 stroke petrol machinery which was usually laid up for the winter. We never had a problem until the introduction of unleaded fuel/ withdrawal of leaded in the late 90's . The first spring after this, none of the machinery which had had fuel left in would start. Some had a resinlike gunk choking the jets. After that first unleaded spring, we learned to shut off the fuel and run the engine till the fuel ran out. You could usually tell if a machine was going to have a problem as there was a sickly sweet smell from the fuel.
Yes the early unleaded modern fuel had an octane enhancer which could (and did) deposit black thermoplastic gunge on the backs of inlet valves of old cars. The engine ran o.k. as the deposit built up and was hot, but once stopped it could cool and the gunge set, holding at least some of the valves open so it wouldn't go until the stuff was chipped off.
Happily the octane enhancer did something similar to modern engines so had to be replaced with a more benign additive.
Happily the octane enhancer did something similar to modern engines so had to be replaced with a more benign additive.
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