No contract of employment
Discussion
I hope someone on here can help with this.
I have been working for a charity, for about a year now. As their delivery / collection driver.
I have had a minor incident at work and was interviewed by one of the regional managers, with my manager taking notes - this was an investigatory interview.
I have now been sent a letter calling me to a formal disciplinary hearing on the 29th of this month.
This letter also included the disciplinary / works standards booklet, which keeps talking about them( same name in both cases) as a limited company and not as a charity. Who I thought I was working for.
What I would like to know is, if I have never seen / read / signed any form of contract, even though I have asked on a number of occasions for one, I keep being told no one has a contract.
How legal are they being in their actions. They have also recently stopped paying overtime, but still expect you to do the extra time.
I have been working for a charity, for about a year now. As their delivery / collection driver.
I have had a minor incident at work and was interviewed by one of the regional managers, with my manager taking notes - this was an investigatory interview.
I have now been sent a letter calling me to a formal disciplinary hearing on the 29th of this month.
This letter also included the disciplinary / works standards booklet, which keeps talking about them( same name in both cases) as a limited company and not as a charity. Who I thought I was working for.
What I would like to know is, if I have never seen / read / signed any form of contract, even though I have asked on a number of occasions for one, I keep being told no one has a contract.
How legal are they being in their actions. They have also recently stopped paying overtime, but still expect you to do the extra time.
The legal set up for the employer could still be correct from a couple of different angles I believe. Firstly some charities are also limited companies as it limits liability which otherwise wouldn't necessarily be the case running just as a charity. There are now more recently some charity models which allow limited liability (CIO's) but these types are pretty new. Secondly some charities have companies under their structure - lets say for example for a trading arm. All profits are then distributed back to the charity. So without names etc I couldn't confirm - but it is possible this could be true.
However - the other side is not good. All employee's must be provided with terms of employment - the simplest form possibly being a letter offering employment and a ''rule book'' - in my opinion. This is such a basic requirement. This sounds like it can be turned to your advantage if they stick with this, and you can get it on record (ask if you can record the meeting on a phone etc - we have done this the other way round to protect ourselves against employees). However, if they have an axe to grind they will try and wriggle in whatever direction they want - plus your length of employment does not help I'm afraid.
Also the overtime - you would need to have sight of this non existent contract and its terms. Even if it was contractual terms can be changed if correct procedures are followed - for example notice of a change. Again - I guess they have cocked up here from what you have supplied.
I'm sure someone with better experience of employment law will come along with more points.
However - the other side is not good. All employee's must be provided with terms of employment - the simplest form possibly being a letter offering employment and a ''rule book'' - in my opinion. This is such a basic requirement. This sounds like it can be turned to your advantage if they stick with this, and you can get it on record (ask if you can record the meeting on a phone etc - we have done this the other way round to protect ourselves against employees). However, if they have an axe to grind they will try and wriggle in whatever direction they want - plus your length of employment does not help I'm afraid.
Also the overtime - you would need to have sight of this non existent contract and its terms. Even if it was contractual terms can be changed if correct procedures are followed - for example notice of a change. Again - I guess they have cocked up here from what you have supplied.
I'm sure someone with better experience of employment law will come along with more points.
Edited by ClassicMercs on Wednesday 23 March 23:09
(1) As noted above, a charity can operate through a limited company, either a standard one or a company limited by guarantee.
(2) You do have a contract of employment, but not a written one. The contract is to be inferred from whatever you orally agreed and from conduct.
(3) The company is in breach of statutory rules because it has not given you written particulars of employment.
(4) If payment for overtime is a contractual right, then the company is in breach of contract and of statute by not paying for overtime.
(5) You are not protected against unfair dismissal until you have worked for two years in the same employment (or are dismissed for a reason such as union activity or whistle blowing).
(2) You do have a contract of employment, but not a written one. The contract is to be inferred from whatever you orally agreed and from conduct.
(3) The company is in breach of statutory rules because it has not given you written particulars of employment.
(4) If payment for overtime is a contractual right, then the company is in breach of contract and of statute by not paying for overtime.
(5) You are not protected against unfair dismissal until you have worked for two years in the same employment (or are dismissed for a reason such as union activity or whistle blowing).
Thanks for the reply's
My thoughts were, that as I have not got any tangible form of contract, other than a verbal one (which we all know is as good as the paper its written on ) this would be a double edged sword. In that I could claim that they could not hold me to any conditions / rules as I have had no opportunity to see / understand what those are and so agree to them. And therefore any disciplinary action would be inappropriate.
The other side to this would be, that they would then terminate my employment as there is no contract and so reason / need to keep me on.
My thoughts were, that as I have not got any tangible form of contract, other than a verbal one (which we all know is as good as the paper its written on ) this would be a double edged sword. In that I could claim that they could not hold me to any conditions / rules as I have had no opportunity to see / understand what those are and so agree to them. And therefore any disciplinary action would be inappropriate.
The other side to this would be, that they would then terminate my employment as there is no contract and so reason / need to keep me on.
You are wrong. An oral contract is enforceable. You are subject to implied terms as to good conduct. The employer should apply a fair procedure (but you have limited remedies for unfairness in view of your short time with the employer). I suggest that you modify your attitude, as coming across as a chancer or barrack room lawyer will not enhance your chances of avoiding disciplinary action.
PS: The plural form of "reply" is "replies", and plurals require no apostrophe.
PPS: A written contract is a verbal contract - it is made using words. The term you wanted was oral contract (this is also a verbal contract- again made using words).
PS: The plural form of "reply" is "replies", and plurals require no apostrophe.
PPS: A written contract is a verbal contract - it is made using words. The term you wanted was oral contract (this is also a verbal contract- again made using words).
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 24th March 08:00
On the face of it and on the limited information, the disciplinary process so far looks fair. Whilst it may not be in a document you have in your possession, broadly speaking, the investigation meeting, the (written?) invitation to a formal disciplinary meeting, are all indicators of what should be a standard thorough process.
It seems like you have a few concerns/issues which were probably not issues previously, and are trying to link them or play them off against each other.
It seems like you have a few concerns/issues which were probably not issues previously, and are trying to link them or play them off against each other.
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