Sectioned: To save who?
Discussion
From the papers over the weekend, it was already being suggested that he had "mental" issues to deal with........
And she's only being charged with "perverting the course of justice". So it sounds as though he'll be put away for a long time anyway - either in a mental hosptial with a decent jacket, or stand trial and go down that way (if shown to be guilty)
28 days for an assessment then a decision on whether he is fit to stand trial or not. If it goes to court and he pleads guilty due to insanity, he'll still be out of our way, which is the best solution.
And she's only being charged with "perverting the course of justice". So it sounds as though he'll be put away for a long time anyway - either in a mental hosptial with a decent jacket, or stand trial and go down that way (if shown to be guilty)
28 days for an assessment then a decision on whether he is fit to stand trial or not. If it goes to court and he pleads guilty due to insanity, he'll still be out of our way, which is the best solution.
Personally, I reckon it's just a case of the police using the tools of the system that are available to them - this buys them some time to do whatever they need to do in terms of investigation, forensic testing etc.. and they can put him away practically forever without trial using the MHA.
The issue is that being sectioned means that he might not even stand trial at all. However, I would suggest that this is not going to be the case - there will be major public and political pressure to have a conviction rather than have a situation where everyone has to say "suspected".
They dont section people lightheartedly and I guess that this would have been a last resort for them. My fear is that the plea in any case will be "in diminished responsibility" and therefore skip a lot of the trail aspects.... but either way it doesnt necessarily mean that he will get a lighter sentence though.
The Maxine Carr thing is a farce though. Dont get me wrong, perverting the course of justice can give you a nice long stretch at HM pleasure. But I would have thought that a stronger charge should be brought. Ok, maybe not manslaughter but there must be something stronger since she obviously knew and therefore hid evidence and lied to police.....Any suggestions from lawyer types?
All in all it is depressing in that we wont know the full details until AFTER the case. And that could be years away....
Cheers,
Paul
They dont section people lightheartedly and I guess that this would have been a last resort for them. My fear is that the plea in any case will be "in diminished responsibility" and therefore skip a lot of the trail aspects.... but either way it doesnt necessarily mean that he will get a lighter sentence though.
The Maxine Carr thing is a farce though. Dont get me wrong, perverting the course of justice can give you a nice long stretch at HM pleasure. But I would have thought that a stronger charge should be brought. Ok, maybe not manslaughter but there must be something stronger since she obviously knew and therefore hid evidence and lied to police.....Any suggestions from lawyer types?
All in all it is depressing in that we wont know the full details until AFTER the case. And that could be years away....
Cheers,
Paul
It's better in a way if he goes to the nuthouse, as he'd eventually get out if tried normally (excluding the possibility of his getting lynched in the nick), but being sectioned he can be kept banged up for good.
Edited to add: DOH! Carzee posted same while I was posting
An as for his bird - I sure wouldn't like to be her trying to get on with her life after this - still she probably deserves it...
>> Edited by Fatboy on Wednesday 21st August 09:54
Edited to add: DOH! Carzee posted same while I was posting
An as for his bird - I sure wouldn't like to be her trying to get on with her life after this - still she probably deserves it...
>> Edited by Fatboy on Wednesday 21st August 09:54
HE has probably been sectioned to stop the backlash against the public service personnel who failed dismally on their psychiatric approvals of them to work with children. Having family who work with social services I have firsthand knowledge of the politically correct supposed checks on staff which only in the rarest cases actually get done. UNTIL the sh1t hits the fan that is, then the supposed checker runs for cover.......
Of course he must be insane to actually kidnap and kill (and who knows what else) such children..... but really who is sane nowadays? Just look at the rantings of PhonyTonysProlyCronies...
***Rant Mode off****
Of course he must be insane to actually kidnap and kill (and who knows what else) such children..... but really who is sane nowadays? Just look at the rantings of PhonyTonysProlyCronies...
***Rant Mode off****
quote:there's something about that which makes me uneasy... I mean what does it matter whether or not you or I *ever* find out the full details? I suspecdt those involved in the investigation and the trial are the only ones who *do* ever find out the full story (in fact the investigating officers may find a lot of things out which are inadmissible in court).
All in all it is depressing in that we wont know the full details until AFTER the case. And that could be years away....
So why is that depressing? To me that smacks of the mawkish attitude of the media, not out of sympathy for the poor families involved, but out of a desire to paw over salacious details and uncover nasty secrets.
quote:Maxine is was a very popular name on Manchester sink estates and they all seem to be dodgy slappers.
Maxine Carr
At the risk of upsetting any PHers associated with a Maxine, I think it'd be best if we just rounded up anyone called Maxine and sent them to Iraq as a forward reccy group.
He's probably been sectioned as there is less chance of him topping himself in a padded cell than there is in a nick... and at the end of the day I think all involved want a conviction... I think the families want someone to be held accountabile for what happened, rather than just more unanswered questions.
As for "attempting to pervert the course of justice"... hmm, how about this angle? She was innocent of the murder, but found out that he did it, but kept schtum (for whatever reason - "loyalty" or even fear).
More to the point, what happens if she is realeased? Can hardly see her moving back to Soham, can you?
Also, my limited knowledge of the Mental Health Act (83) means that in "x" number of years time, he may actually be realesed back into the community... given that at the time of the murders he was mentally ill, but now cured... I imagine that would go down like the preverbial shit sandwich.
As for "attempting to pervert the course of justice"... hmm, how about this angle? She was innocent of the murder, but found out that he did it, but kept schtum (for whatever reason - "loyalty" or even fear).
More to the point, what happens if she is realeased? Can hardly see her moving back to Soham, can you?
Also, my limited knowledge of the Mental Health Act (83) means that in "x" number of years time, he may actually be realesed back into the community... given that at the time of the murders he was mentally ill, but now cured... I imagine that would go down like the preverbial shit sandwich.
And what about the fact that pathologists couldn't discover the cause of death? And no formal identification was needed? What the hell has happened to the girls bodies for their still to be doubt? As CarZee says it may be better not knowing exact details, but if the bodies weren't hacked into little pieces, or burned beyond recognition, why is there still uncertainty. Or again, is this to protect the public?
quote:
So why is that depressing? To me that smacks of the mawkish attitude of the media, not out of sympathy for the poor families involved, but out of a desire to paw over salacious details and uncover nasty secrets
Personally I would like to know what drives people to do this and the reasons why they have performed uspeakable acts. This information I feel will be valuable to help protect my children in the future and we can all learn from this horrendous event.
As long as this individual is never let back on the streets, by sectioning / prison whatever, we can all feel safer that its one more nutter out of society.
quote:
And what about the fact that pathologists couldn't discover the cause of death? And no formal identification was needed? What the hell has happened to the girls bodies for their still to be doubt? As CarZee says it may be better not knowing exact details, but if the bodies weren't hacked into little pieces, or burned beyond recognition, why is there still uncertainty. Or again, is this to protect the public?
This is probably to protect the public (having spoken to one of the old man's friends who is a pathologist).
TUNE OUT NOW IF UPSET BY THIS SORT OF TALK
Consider this.. the girls we missing for two weeks. Assuming they were in the same spot for most of that time - in the recent heat - there would not be a lot left.
The fact that they are unable to conclude that the bodies DEFINATELY are those of the two girls, means there is not a lot left. This means that there are probably not even dental records that will match.
Going back a week or so - those mounds of earth that were found. Maybe they were intended to be graves, but were found before the bodies could be buried.
Which ever way you look at it, the truth does not bear thinking about.. indeed we may be best not knowing - yet morbid curiosity makes us want to know and even discuss it.
May their souls rest in peace.
Does anyone see a parallel between this "couple" and Hindley and Brady back in the 60's? Woman besotted with a man and under his influence, and (luckily but hauntingly) those tapes thankfully put her away as well.
To think - people have been campaigning for years for these people to be released.
Fred West's wife as well has been endlessly campaigning for release . .
Another interesting point that will surface is the scrutiny teachers will be under, but in the same schools some caretakers/janitors etc have no history checks and are not under the same "child contact" rules that teachers are under . . .
This could prove very to be very nervous times for ANYONE employed by schools in ANY capacity . . .
Once again - liberty groups will complain . . .
>> Edited by robkola on Wednesday 21st August 11:01
To think - people have been campaigning for years for these people to be released.
Fred West's wife as well has been endlessly campaigning for release . .
Another interesting point that will surface is the scrutiny teachers will be under, but in the same schools some caretakers/janitors etc have no history checks and are not under the same "child contact" rules that teachers are under . . .
This could prove very to be very nervous times for ANYONE employed by schools in ANY capacity . . .
Once again - liberty groups will complain . . .
>> Edited by robkola on Wednesday 21st August 11:01
quote:
quote:
And what about the fact that pathologists couldn't discover the cause of death? And no formal identification was needed? What the hell has happened to the girls bodies for their still to be doubt? As CarZee says it may be better not knowing exact details, but if the bodies weren't hacked into little pieces, or burned beyond recognition, why is there still uncertainty. Or again, is this to protect the public?
This is probably to protect the public (having spoken to one of the old man's friends who is a pathologist).
TUNE OUT NOW IF UPSET BY THIS SORT OF TALK
..
..
May their souls rest in peace.
Lets all leave this bit alone plz.. I'm sure all of us would rather not dwell on the details..
poor girls.
Cheers
Matt
I don't know about the rest of you but I keep seeing the faces of these two people on TV and my mind just cannot accept that two outwardly normal, intelligent enough to lie convincingly on camera, young people can have done this.....nothing mawkish about it, as a parent I want to know wtf happened
From my vague memories of criminal law courses at university I seem to recall that if you plead insanity to a murder charge and your plea is successful that you are sent to an institution for life without chance of release (but I'm a banking lawyer so don't fully trust my criminal advice).
Sounds to me like the charge of attempting to pervert the course of justice could be a holding charge, not that such things exist, or she could have cut a deal. Who knows?
Sounds to me like the charge of attempting to pervert the course of justice could be a holding charge, not that such things exist, or she could have cut a deal. Who knows?
"attempting to pervert the course of justice" - is that even an offence? Since, she only "attempted" it, rather than actually doing it? 
I've watched the updates each night on News 24... and it's been weird, with so many twists and turns it's been like a bad film.
Another thing was, when Huntley starting giving interviews that he'd seen the girls, the misses commented that it looked like he had scratch marks on his left cheek. Thought nothing of it at the time, but now it just sends shivers down me.
I don't know whether it's good or bad that we may never have the answers, since I can see both sides of the coin. The mind boggles at what drives these people and makes them tick... and does nothing to inspire trust in anyone. I remember years ago, my mother saying to me that if something was wrong or I got lost, to go and see anyone at the school that I knew as I'd be safe... what the hell do you tell your kids? Trust no one? As a young man, it casts doubt in my mind as to whether I would ever want to bring up a child in this world.
I've watched the updates each night on News 24... and it's been weird, with so many twists and turns it's been like a bad film.
Another thing was, when Huntley starting giving interviews that he'd seen the girls, the misses commented that it looked like he had scratch marks on his left cheek. Thought nothing of it at the time, but now it just sends shivers down me.
I don't know whether it's good or bad that we may never have the answers, since I can see both sides of the coin. The mind boggles at what drives these people and makes them tick... and does nothing to inspire trust in anyone. I remember years ago, my mother saying to me that if something was wrong or I got lost, to go and see anyone at the school that I knew as I'd be safe... what the hell do you tell your kids? Trust no one? As a young man, it casts doubt in my mind as to whether I would ever want to bring up a child in this world.
quote:
As for "attempting to pervert the course of justice"... hmm, how about this angle? She was innocent of the murder, but found out that he did it, but kept schtum (for whatever reason - "loyalty" or even fear).
I was under the impression that if this was the case she becomes an 'accessory after the fact' and can be tried for murder as well?
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