high mileage regular use vs garage queen?
Discussion
apologies to all those veterans who have seen and discussed this before. as I am "but a virgin" here I may be travelling a well worn road. but...the recent post on the "concours condition" 16K 944 got me thinking about how much value maintenence and a sheaf of bills adds to a cars value. and which is better - a regularly used, well maintained high mileage porsche or a low milage rarely used but obsessively cared for one?
e.g 2 identical 1990 964 carrera 2 911s. same age, same everything. one has 30k on the clock, original everything, one has 120k on the clock but has a top end rebuild and a new clutch/flywheel. which would you go for? and which would be more expensive?
or:
2 identical 964s, 110K miles. one on for 19K, the other having had a £6000 top end rebuild, clutch and flywheel. how much more in reality is the second one worth? (if anything)
>>> Edited by softinthehead on Thursday 24th February 12:09
e.g 2 identical 1990 964 carrera 2 911s. same age, same everything. one has 30k on the clock, original everything, one has 120k on the clock but has a top end rebuild and a new clutch/flywheel. which would you go for? and which would be more expensive?
or:
2 identical 964s, 110K miles. one on for 19K, the other having had a £6000 top end rebuild, clutch and flywheel. how much more in reality is the second one worth? (if anything)
>>> Edited by softinthehead on Thursday 24th February 12:09
The lower mileage example will always command the higher price - some people can't see past the mileage thing even though the wear from start/stop useage will be worse.
It seems to be generally accepted that a well maintained car used daily will be more reliable than a car that has sat unused from one week to the next.
It seems to be generally accepted that a well maintained car used daily will be more reliable than a car that has sat unused from one week to the next.
aceparts_com said:
Buy a 1992/3 one to avoid the oil leak problems altogether. I've had a 1990 C2, spent probably £15K making it perfect; still pissed oil.
There's cars and cars. I've had a 1990 C2 which was dry as a bone, and a 93 car with leaks.
Best C2 I've ever owned had 133,500 miles on the clock. Went like a train, used it everyday for 2 years, hardly any problems.
Buy on condition, forget mileage completely other than to establish it's value.
I know that it's the wrong car thread but I bought a 25 year old Dino 308 GT4 with 11,000 miles on the clock.
Genuine mileage, first dealer demonstrator then this 81 year old guy who could no longer get insurance. He did about 5 miles per year in it, to the local pub and back each Sunday and it was fully serviced supposedly every year with all invoices and paperwork since new.
But it had a minor oil leak, which couldn't be traced and because it wasn't used, all the suspension seals(?) were failing due to lack of regular movement and so I sold it before the big costs hit. It went to a collector in Japan.
I've since been told that it's far better to get a car that's been used and maintained rather than a low mileage garage queen.
Prior to that I had a 911 SC Targa with 68k miles on the clock which, apart from the Targa seals and rather worn interior, was a fantastic driver and I loved it.
Having said that, the sounds from the Dino were far more evocative.
Genuine mileage, first dealer demonstrator then this 81 year old guy who could no longer get insurance. He did about 5 miles per year in it, to the local pub and back each Sunday and it was fully serviced supposedly every year with all invoices and paperwork since new.
But it had a minor oil leak, which couldn't be traced and because it wasn't used, all the suspension seals(?) were failing due to lack of regular movement and so I sold it before the big costs hit. It went to a collector in Japan.
I've since been told that it's far better to get a car that's been used and maintained rather than a low mileage garage queen.
Prior to that I had a 911 SC Targa with 68k miles on the clock which, apart from the Targa seals and rather worn interior, was a fantastic driver and I loved it.
Having said that, the sounds from the Dino were far more evocative.
softinthehead said:
apologies to all those veterans who have seen and discussed this before. as I am "but a virgin" here I may be travelling a well worn road. but...the recent post on the "concours condition" 16K 944 got me thinking about how much value maintenence and a sheaf of bills adds to a cars value. and which is better - a regularly used, well maintained high mileage porsche or a low milage rarely used but obsessively cared for one?
e.g 2 identical 1990 964 carrera 2 911s. same age, same everything. one has 30k on the clock, original everything, one has 120k on the clock but has a top end rebuild and a new clutch/flywheel. which would you go for? and which would be more expensive?
or:
2 identical 964s, 110K miles. one on for 19K, the other having had a £6000 top end rebuild, clutch and flywheel. how much more in reality is the second one worth? (if anything)
>>> Edited by softinthehead on Thursday 24th February 12:09
If you have to have a 964 then get a later one and don't worry about higher mileage,or go for an early 993 C4 and the same apply's.
I have a 993C4S with 78000 on the clock when I bought it and the gearbox is sweet.I have done 14000m in 2 years and use it when its not really crap weather cause I love driving it. I drove about 20 other cars with loweer miles and some of them were dogs.
Hope this helps
I was using the 964s as examples - I spent far too long searching for my 968cab to abandon it after 4 months! I used the 964 as a what if? because its an example of an old car with a well known specific problem (ie the early model oil weep) and when i was perusing them last year I found a stunning breath of condition and price from real dogs to a £25k mint LHD cab with only 12.5K on the clock!! (incidentally I see its only JUST sold after a good 6-8 months - www.gtclassics.co.uk - and I was amazed at the premium some sellers (especially private) attached to a car because of its maintenence schedule. on the other hand some dealers were selling top-end rebuild models for only 1-2k more than similar untouched brethren. in the end it comes down to business sense vs naked lust, as with all purchases in life.
>> Edited by softinthehead on Thursday 24th February 18:58
>> Edited by softinthehead on Thursday 24th February 19:01
>> Edited by softinthehead on Thursday 24th February 18:58
>> Edited by softinthehead on Thursday 24th February 19:01
softinthehead said:
e.g 2 identical 1990 964 carrera 2 911s. same age, same everything. one has 30k on the clock, original everything, one has 120k on the clock but has a top end rebuild and a new clutch/flywheel. which would you go for? and which would be more expensive?
or:
2 identical 964s, 110K miles. one on for 19K, the other having had a £6000 top end rebuild, clutch and flywheel. how much more in reality is the second one worth? (if anything)
The two ultra low mileage cars will 'probably' have better bodywork and better interior but I would worry about the mechanicals. Most of the parts on the low mileage cars will be 15 years old (shocks, clutch, bushes, electrics, brakes?) . The high mileage cars will have had things replaced and will drive fresher and better IMHO
UNLESS the two low milers have actually been maintained properly by a fastidious enthusiast, replacing parts as they get older.
A lot of people would be happier to pay more for the low milers, but not me (especially as mileage is determined by a tiny clock which is so easy to fiddle)
sizzler said:
daily use keeps the rubber supple.
Must tell that to my wife.....
The french Porsche mag that I read is always moaning about the preoccupation of buyers with mileage. With the earlier cars over here they all seem to end up clocked - 15 to 20 year old cars that have miraculously only covered 60 or 70 kmiles! No doubt such low use cars do genuinely exist, but they should be the exception rather than the rule. Given the longevity of the flat six if maintenance requirements have been respected, there should be no need to lie!
From the 993 onwards (I think) the ECU can be interrogated by a dealer to give a read out of total engine hours, so an idea can be formed of the veracity of the odometer reading.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Surely by saying what you did you do agree with my view on mileage ie on an old (5 or 6 years plus) car, the number on the speedo and the condition of the car have very little to do with each other.
Of course if one car has done 200 miles and spent it`s life in a museum and the other car has done 300,000 miles we know which will be the better car, (although anyone who actually dares drive / use the museum car after buying it better be sitting when it comes to re-sale !
But we are talking about the difference between 40,000 or 120,000 miles and the fact is 40,000 miles is an awfull lot of driving in Westminster, Chelsea or the 1.5 miles between Upper Chipping Snodbury and Lower Chipping Snodbury twice or thrice a day.
Obviously the number on the speedo is one of the factors that effect the price of a car, but provided that is taken care of then buy the best value car.
Henry
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Providing the £4,000 mile 944 turbo isn`t priced at the same figure that would allow you to slide your buttocks into your dream C4 S of course, and that`s where it all goes wrong with ultra-low milers.
The moral is a simple one, all older cars are different and there is no such thing as an "average" car or "average" use. Take the blinkers off, look at the car, consider all the cars on the market and that way you`ll get the best car possible.
When I was at art college drawing naked ladies - no really we used to do that ! - I had a Welsh tutor who use to keep hitting you shouting "look at the model for christ sake", and he was right. We all used to have a quick glance at the girl and then spend ages looking at our pencil drawing on the paper, then have another quick glance at the naked lady before going back to the paper. In reality all we were doing was drawing an imaginary picture loosly based on the model. The man was a genius - take his advice. "Look at the car !"
Keep smiling and if there are any pretty ladies that want to be drawn naked I am available for comissions in the evening !
Henry
I'd be interested to know what you guys think of cars with many previous owners i.e. why is it deemed important to have fewer? I own a 44k mile 968, with 5 previous owners (including the OPC) - when I bought, this didn't bother me in the slightest. It just happened to be a low mileage example, but I tried to buy with the blinkers off, like Henry suggested above. I reckon that come selling time (which may be soon) many buyers will baulk at 5 previous owners on a low mileage car. But the history checks out fine and the car is in superb condition, so why should it matter?
One point I would say that hasnt been raised is a high mileage car is likely to have seen more repairs / maintenance done over the years, and if they havent all been done properly you can end up with a big pile of bodges.
Personally, if I planned to keep a car for a decent length of time, id buy a low mileage, little used, decent example, get all the repairs done to get it sorted for use, and then have it. That way you dont have to go to what should be a regular maintenance item and discover the jobs a nightmare because its been done wrongly before. Do it once, do it right.
Personally, if I planned to keep a car for a decent length of time, id buy a low mileage, little used, decent example, get all the repairs done to get it sorted for use, and then have it. That way you dont have to go to what should be a regular maintenance item and discover the jobs a nightmare because its been done wrongly before. Do it once, do it right.
But that`s just the problem. Low mileage doesn`t equal low use. That car driven everyday in Guernsey, Jersey or East Grinstead does very few miles but has lots of wear put on it.
No of owners not something I personally pay any attention to when buying a car. Again given the age of most of out stock a 7 or 10 year old car is going to have had a few owners if everyone kept it for a year, 18 months or a couple of years. That isn`t even allowing for changes of address, registering in a wife / husband / lover`s name; in and out of a company name; number plate transfers, etc. All these things can add owners on the V5. And even if someone has had a car for 10 years is it really a good thing ? Don`t we take less care of our things once we`ve had them a while and they are "part of the family". Besides you won`t have noticed all those things (like a heavy clutch for instance), creeping up on you.
Isn`t it amazing how dirty the paint in you house looks when you have taken all the pictures down and you are about to move out to pastures new. Luckily the new owner will soon have your house back up to speed and sort out those little jobs on the survey !
Now this all changes when we look at those one owner from new tiny mileage cars that you pay shed loads for. The very act of you buying it makes it no longer a 1 owner car. And when you drive it the number on the speedo increases. So rather perversely you wouldn`t buy your own car off yourself when you want to get rid of it (because you wanted a 1 not 2 owner car, and one with 50 not 80k on the clock). So you have to sell it on as a normal car and for normal market value. Be sitting down !!!!
Finally rather than take pleasure from telling people how few miles my car has done I actually get more pleasure telling them how many miles it`s done and how little I paid for it. The look of wonder on their faces as they try to equate the lovely car in front of them to the numbers is great. To this day I get more pleasure from buying a real peach of a car for a couple of thousand pounds than from buying a £60k dream car. For £60k it bloody well should be dream car but to get pleasure from a car costing less than a good bottle of wine is very rewarding.
Henry
No of owners not something I personally pay any attention to when buying a car. Again given the age of most of out stock a 7 or 10 year old car is going to have had a few owners if everyone kept it for a year, 18 months or a couple of years. That isn`t even allowing for changes of address, registering in a wife / husband / lover`s name; in and out of a company name; number plate transfers, etc. All these things can add owners on the V5. And even if someone has had a car for 10 years is it really a good thing ? Don`t we take less care of our things once we`ve had them a while and they are "part of the family". Besides you won`t have noticed all those things (like a heavy clutch for instance), creeping up on you.
Isn`t it amazing how dirty the paint in you house looks when you have taken all the pictures down and you are about to move out to pastures new. Luckily the new owner will soon have your house back up to speed and sort out those little jobs on the survey !
Now this all changes when we look at those one owner from new tiny mileage cars that you pay shed loads for. The very act of you buying it makes it no longer a 1 owner car. And when you drive it the number on the speedo increases. So rather perversely you wouldn`t buy your own car off yourself when you want to get rid of it (because you wanted a 1 not 2 owner car, and one with 50 not 80k on the clock). So you have to sell it on as a normal car and for normal market value. Be sitting down !!!!
Finally rather than take pleasure from telling people how few miles my car has done I actually get more pleasure telling them how many miles it`s done and how little I paid for it. The look of wonder on their faces as they try to equate the lovely car in front of them to the numbers is great. To this day I get more pleasure from buying a real peach of a car for a couple of thousand pounds than from buying a £60k dream car. For £60k it bloody well should be dream car but to get pleasure from a car costing less than a good bottle of wine is very rewarding.
Henry
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