What are your trouble signs
Discussion
We all get them, in all industries, the clients who are trouble, who will never be happy, and will run you ragged then complain....
My warning sign is vagueness. Anyone who does not know what they are asking for, or worse what they actually want/need. I know that a bumpy road lies ahead.
Yours?
My warning sign is vagueness. Anyone who does not know what they are asking for, or worse what they actually want/need. I know that a bumpy road lies ahead.
Yours?
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
My last video project was from a two-bit engineering outfit who wanted a promo for their grinder. I went for a meeting and they were adamant they didn't want a soundtrack. 'What no sound at all?' 'No, it will get in the way, our salesman will do the talking'.
That was the time to get my coat. But in the interests of making a buck I took it on. Delivered edited, soundless video for approval. They hated it. It was quiet and boring they said. Yes of course it f
king was, there was no sound you cretins, you should have listened to my advice or I should have bailed at stage one. And the MD didn't like some of the shots. So where were you during filming eh?
My last video project was from a two-bit engineering outfit who wanted a promo for their grinder. I went for a meeting and they were adamant they didn't want a soundtrack. 'What no sound at all?' 'No, it will get in the way, our salesman will do the talking'.
That was the time to get my coat. But in the interests of making a buck I took it on. Delivered edited, soundless video for approval. They hated it. It was quiet and boring they said. Yes of course it f
king was, there was no sound you cretins, you should have listened to my advice or I should have bailed at stage one. And the MD didn't like some of the shots. So where were you during filming eh?jammy_basturd said:
Fighting over every last penny and pound. Shows they don't know your value and will happily jump ship as soon as a cheaper alternative comes along.
THIS....And, (Generally smaller companies) 'i'll let you know when I can make a payment when I've talked to our accountant.' Who employs who?
offshoreeddy said:
My problem clients typically come from one of two parts in the world - Israel and India. Pretty much any time a deal comes in from those areas, I know it's going to be a headache. Which is kind of a problem as a lot of my clients are in Israel...
In all my years of trading I have had umpteen enquiries from Israel and have never ever sent anything there! I thought i'd broken it last week when some guy rang me repeatedly, but it came to nowt as usual.Greeks also, I have sent stuff there, but they are generally a waste of time. I think it's basically poor countries.
Signs of a time waster? I work on my own, build performance engines and sell the parts too so have little time to waste. You know when someone is wasting your time by the amount of questions they ask. If someone is serious they've read the blurb on the site so have an idea what to expect and how much it will cost, they will ask one or two basic questions:
How much in total?
When?
Will it do what I want (it needs to do x,y,z) ?
That's generally enough for someone who is a serious buyer, they don't want nor have any need to know the intimate details, they just want it to meet their important criteria.
Timewasters want to know all the intimate details for nothing, What's this for? Where does that come from? What's the spec on that? Basically they are picking my brains for info with no hope of a sale because they're either going to do it themselves or have seen a product elsewhere and the vendor has seen them coming and won't entertain them. When I'm really busy and sense a TW I tell them I'll charge per email of info, any payments are refunded on X amount of engine build, that sorts the wheat from the chaff after a few initial emails.
When the client takes you on because they fell out with the last supplier of goods/services, they accuse the last supplier of being poor and under-pay the last supplier's invoice.
Then 12 months later you place them in the bin for moaning about the service and underpaying invoices when all the other clients are very happy.
Then 12 months later you place them in the bin for moaning about the service and underpaying invoices when all the other clients are very happy.
Qcarchoo said:
The trouble sign for me is a client who thinks he knows more about my business than me (building) and then wants to cherry pick parts of the job he can do himself.
"I used to be in the building game"Or if you're arriving to fix the PC "I used to do that" or "my mate/Dad/Uncle does/did that" are quite often bad signs.
When you arrive back at the job to find 'Uncle Bob' has been round and pointed out how it should be done
I'm a solutions consultant for a call centre software vendor (pre-sales).
"Like for like" is phrase that fill sme with fear - if you want the same again just upgrade what you have.
An RFP that has 10 pages of pre-amble, 5 pages describing the current solution but nothing on what they actually want (see above)
Lack of basic information - call volumes, durations etc.
Constantly changing requirements
Wanting a breakdown of services - it's a fixed price project, take it or leave it. If you are such an expert that you want to know why it takes 3 days to deploy and configure our software on a server not 2days why don't you do the deployment?
You want a refund if we don't use all the allocated service days but don't want to pay more if we go over?
The live date is fixed and despite the fact the timescale was tight we agreed anyway based on getting a PO by CoB. Now, you still want delivery on time forgetting you have still not made a decision or given us a PO 6 weeks later.
Cutting the training requirement to the bone then complaining you don't have enough trained staff.
"Like for like" is phrase that fill sme with fear - if you want the same again just upgrade what you have.
An RFP that has 10 pages of pre-amble, 5 pages describing the current solution but nothing on what they actually want (see above)
Lack of basic information - call volumes, durations etc.
Constantly changing requirements
Wanting a breakdown of services - it's a fixed price project, take it or leave it. If you are such an expert that you want to know why it takes 3 days to deploy and configure our software on a server not 2days why don't you do the deployment?
You want a refund if we don't use all the allocated service days but don't want to pay more if we go over?
The live date is fixed and despite the fact the timescale was tight we agreed anyway based on getting a PO by CoB. Now, you still want delivery on time forgetting you have still not made a decision or given us a PO 6 weeks later.
Cutting the training requirement to the bone then complaining you don't have enough trained staff.
I tend to find if there is any lack of clarity and difference in point of view in what you are selling and what they are buying is the start of difficulties. Or vice versa of course.
How emergent issues get dealt with after that is down to both sides approach if people want to make it work they can, if they chose to ignore the signs of difficulties coming the issues tend to get bigger.
How emergent issues get dealt with after that is down to both sides approach if people want to make it work they can, if they chose to ignore the signs of difficulties coming the issues tend to get bigger.
Vagueness is a good sign, as mentioned. Also, in my line of work a site prep is often required. Seeing a run-down shop with no lighting or ventilation or any concept of health and safety, then be promised by the owner that once I deliver the high-end £500k machine, the site will magically gain the mandatory temperature control and air purification system, plus any additional infrastructure specified... Right. That's gonna happen.
Customers who plan a big investment in capital equipment, but won't send their own field personnel for a demo before they buy. More generally, the kind of factories (like print shops or metal fabricators) that buy equipment without involving the people who are going to operate it, completely mismanage the risks, and then come back to you with complaints. fk off!
Customers I visit, and it quickly becomes clear their production floor has a revolving door system, where people are hired on a lowest-wage-possible basis. Gotta love those, especially if they're too 'business savvy' to buy a service contract... thus allowing you to make 5x the money each time one of their monkeys throws a spanner in the works (often literally).
Customers who plan a big investment in capital equipment, but won't send their own field personnel for a demo before they buy. More generally, the kind of factories (like print shops or metal fabricators) that buy equipment without involving the people who are going to operate it, completely mismanage the risks, and then come back to you with complaints. f
k off! Customers I visit, and it quickly becomes clear their production floor has a revolving door system, where people are hired on a lowest-wage-possible basis. Gotta love those, especially if they're too 'business savvy' to buy a service contract... thus allowing you to make 5x the money each time one of their monkeys throws a spanner in the works (often literally).
offshoreeddy said:
My problem clients typically come from one of two parts in the world - Israel and India. Pretty much any time a deal comes in from those areas, I know it's going to be a headache. Which is kind of a problem as a lot of my clients are in Israel...
Not familiar with India, but I might be able to give you a few tips on how to deal with Israelis effectively. They're a difficult bunch indeed. What is it that you sell to them?jammy_basturd said:
Fighting over every last penny and pound. Shows they don't know your value and will happily jump ship as soon as a cheaper alternative comes along.
^ Very much this in my line of work. Also those clients who seem to think that a verbal acceptance of my terms and rates are sufficient and get all stty with you when you say politely sorry no can do until you confirm acceptancce in writing. Had my fingers burnt on too many occasions where they ignore my (correct) invoice amount and then pay a lower figure of their own choosing without so much as querying the invoice and telling me why they don't agree with the figure. Boiled my piss having to chase it and now as soon as I see those "signs" I won't entertain them as it's not worth the hassle.offshoreeddy said:
Advertising of the digital kind.
Not really my industry, but here are some rules of thumb which you probably know already:- Much like queues, order and procedure in UK culture - a state of flux, chaos and uncertainty are the living standard in Israel. This means whenever you get a task or a service requested, assume there will be several iterations and factor in some time to make them. If they say 'I need it by the 5th', do it by the 3rd and expect some last minute changes. Don't be caught off guard and get frustrated as a result.
- In business, Israelis are an evolved form of Arabs rather than an under-developed form of Westerners. This means you should expect some form of haggling and always let them leave feeling like they got the upper hand in a negotiation. Their ego is an important part of any decision making process, so don't just assume you can give them a good price on a good product and be done with it. Factor in some 'ballast' on both fronts - a few extra percent on price and some imperfections on quality, then let them spot it, 'force' you to fix it, and feel like they've shown you who's boss.
- This might be hard to combine with my previous point, but - money upfront. ALWAYS. If you have no other choice, keep it +30, assuming they'll treat it as +60 and cough up after significant pressure at +45. It might be a good idea to factor in some time every month for sending them stern emails reminding to pay, and you should really have a legal document at hand ready to deploy if and when they start getting 'creative' with their finances at your expense. Again, don't be caught off guard and don't be a push-over. They will only respect you more for it.
- Quality in general doesn't carry much weight on the Israeli market. In most cases they'd rather have it fast and dirty, as long as it's also cheap and flexible.
- Israelis have a distinct inclination for pragmatism and don't usually bother with manners, so your emails better be short and free of generic waffling. Less 'please' and 'thank you's, more 'I need you to...' and 'let's do this and that'. Always prefer a simple 'hi' in the beginning of an email, because if you write 'dear X' - you've sealed your fate and will be treated from that point on as a posh tt (whether it will be to your face or behind your back).
- In many ways it's like dealing with teenagers. They think they're smart and know everything (especially the 24-35 IT crowd) but it's this very arrogance that makes them easiest to manipulate. Be smart about it and don't take anything personally. Just push the right buttons and collect the money.
- If you have any veterans in the organisation, even if it's not currently their job, consider training and making them the main point of contact with the Israelis. Most Israelis have done some form of army service, most managers are ex-combat, and many programmers and IT people come from the Intelligence corps. Mechanics typically have a background in either the Air Force the Navy. If they're over the age of 30, they've probably seen at least one war or proper military conflict in their service. Keep this in mind. Putting the right kind of person in front of them can make all the difference and smooth out many wrinkles in everyday communication.
That's just some general advice from my experience in that region, obviously I don't know your particular customers so take it all with a pinch of salt.
Hope it helps.
My pet hate is a customer who orders a standard product then as the order proceeds adds a load of other requirements, examples being material certification, test data, drawings, design calcs, certificate of origin, etc, and not wanting to pay a penny more than the originally agreed price.
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