Is age really just a number?
Discussion
Hey Guy,
Been looking at a number of gen1 Cayman S (with water tight warranty I must add!)
One options come up for an older model (2006) with limited spec but in excellent condition but I'm slightly hesitant as the price is high and its hit that 10 year mark...
Question is: age - is it just a number? How will it far in 3 or so years time as a 13 year old car with likely 80k on the clock? Am I looking at a significant depreciation hit or difficulty selling at this age? Or is it really more a condition based market where the best one wins?
Thanks in advance for any thoughts!
Been looking at a number of gen1 Cayman S (with water tight warranty I must add!)
One options come up for an older model (2006) with limited spec but in excellent condition but I'm slightly hesitant as the price is high and its hit that 10 year mark...
Question is: age - is it just a number? How will it far in 3 or so years time as a 13 year old car with likely 80k on the clock? Am I looking at a significant depreciation hit or difficulty selling at this age? Or is it really more a condition based market where the best one wins?
Thanks in advance for any thoughts!
age is a number , but parts wear out, expensive parts, so depending on what's been done over 10 years the car would need 1k to 15k of new bits !
yes people run shocks for 80k miles and say they are fine same with all bushings, but you don't notice the small drop off per day every day for 10 years
drive a new car and it's worlds apart, I would not run shocks over 50k miles nor bushings over 6 years, but people do and are happy.
tyres/servicing and brakes are big money items on a Porker, so if you are scared to loose £3k on a 10 year old car, think about the upkeep which might be double that price !
yes people run shocks for 80k miles and say they are fine same with all bushings, but you don't notice the small drop off per day every day for 10 years
drive a new car and it's worlds apart, I would not run shocks over 50k miles nor bushings over 6 years, but people do and are happy.
tyres/servicing and brakes are big money items on a Porker, so if you are scared to loose £3k on a 10 year old car, think about the upkeep which might be double that price !
The real age of a car is really the age of all the parts on a car, which is why condition is king on older cars.
But if the parts have been replaced (ie the car has been kept tip-top), then those parts are not old, so neither is the car. Porsches are built to last, provided you don't let the maintenance go, which is why such a huge percentage ever made are still running.
You're very unlikely to take a huge amount more depreciation on a 10-year-old Porsche (although there is a psychological effect of passing 100,000 miles). But most Porsches need £1000-2000 per year to keep on top of the ageing process.
But if the parts have been replaced (ie the car has been kept tip-top), then those parts are not old, so neither is the car. Porsches are built to last, provided you don't let the maintenance go, which is why such a huge percentage ever made are still running.
You're very unlikely to take a huge amount more depreciation on a 10-year-old Porsche (although there is a psychological effect of passing 100,000 miles). But most Porsches need £1000-2000 per year to keep on top of the ageing process.
Thanks chaps, I think the car has been well maintained, immaculate inside and paintwork is great as well also new tyres and discs and pads all round. I know that's not the underside but that combined with opc full history seems pretty reassuring to me.
What types of things lead to that 1-2k to budget to keep it ship shape? (Guess I'll plan in cost of bushes as no sign of this having been done) not so worried about that cost, in fact I'd probably invest in some retro fitting to up the spec!! It's more that I worry I wouldn't be able to sell easily/at all/a reasonable price due to age if I needed to get shot of it due to change in circumstance.
What types of things lead to that 1-2k to budget to keep it ship shape? (Guess I'll plan in cost of bushes as no sign of this having been done) not so worried about that cost, in fact I'd probably invest in some retro fitting to up the spec!! It's more that I worry I wouldn't be able to sell easily/at all/a reasonable price due to age if I needed to get shot of it due to change in circumstance.
I'm not sure I'd buy the 06 S. http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=144...
I agree - it's a risk but not one id take without a water tight warranty on it. If it's confirmed and I get something in writing that bore scoring is covered then I'm fine as if it does go pop it's just an inconvenience in getting it fixed. Also I'm going to request an inspection to check if there is any to date. It's done around 50k so if it's clean I'll be pretty confident it's ok! Also making sure I run it on the good stuff (v power) and change oil regularly which I hope will help it's continued health!
Porsche911R said:
age is a number , but parts wear out, expensive parts, so depending on what's been done over 10 years the car would need 1k to 15k of new bits !
yes people run shocks for 80k miles and say they are fine same with all bushings, but you don't notice the small drop off per day every day for 10 years
drive a new car and it's worlds apart, I would not run shocks over 50k miles nor bushings over 6 years, but people do and are happy.
tyres/servicing and brakes are big money items on a Porker, so if you are scared to loose £3k on a 10 year old car, think about the upkeep which might be double that price !
I don't agree with this statement in its entirety. yes people run shocks for 80k miles and say they are fine same with all bushings, but you don't notice the small drop off per day every day for 10 years
drive a new car and it's worlds apart, I would not run shocks over 50k miles nor bushings over 6 years, but people do and are happy.
tyres/servicing and brakes are big money items on a Porker, so if you are scared to loose £3k on a 10 year old car, think about the upkeep which might be double that price !
Servicing isn't that expensive at a good independent. Certainly no more than a new car at a dealership.
Brakes are the same as on every other car to change procedure wise. I use a local garage that charges £30 an hour and I supply the parts. Although I could spanner them myself but at £30 an hour it's not worth it.
Suspension wise I kind of agree at 80 k miles it's going to be tired. If however your planning on keeping the car for a considerable time then a full refresh with decent coilovers and powerflex bushes is not extortionate
If however your going to trade the car in then dealers in my opinion don't give 2 sh**s, they look at there glasses book or whichever one they use and offer that price and in my experience there's never much movement (regardless of if you have refreshed everything)
The one thing I do agree with is if something that you can only get as a replacement from Porsche goes tits up then your subject to Porsche tax and you better have a good supply of Vaseline and bend over.
I own a low mileage full service history (not Porsche but all reputable indie) 2006 Cayman S. It's certainly no more expensive to run than my newer BMW was. In fact the BMW lost quite a bit in depreciation, certainly a shed load more than the Porsche will in the same time period as the BMW. I don't imagine the Cayman losing mega money in the depreciation during my ownership.
Markbarry1977 said:
If however your going to trade the car in then dealers in my opinion don't give 2 sh**s, they look at there glasses book or whichever one they use and offer that price and in my experience there's never much movement (regardless of if you have refreshed everything)
This is generally true in the motor trade. When trading in, just clean the car as best as you can and make it look 'nice'. They wont care that its had a new dooflap crevice nudger.However, this doesn't really apply to older cars where a specialist is buying, they will check it over properly, the older the car, the more they will check. A 1970 911S for example will go in the workshop and on the ramps for intensive checks, especially the body. A 2005 Boxster will get a 10 minute check over outside.
A 2013 Focus will get a cursory glance to see if it is sitting the right way up and then the figure will come direct from the book (There may be adjustments for the sale car of course).
I'm not sure I can add much to what others have said but here goes. Your question is whether age, specifically passing ten years old, will itself affect value. Most cars plummet for the first three years, decline for the next 5-7, then values either stagnate or diverge as some become bangers, some remain cherished or (as is often the case with bmw, Japanese and to an extent Porsche) either fall into the hands of people who spend money on spoilers instead of maintenance, or vice verse. This is where things get interesting because unmolested cars in good condition, once aspirational, now accessible, can be great value. But often 'values' are all over the place.
In my opinion a well maintained, unmolested early Cayman S is likely to be a very desirable car to enthusiasts. It wouldn't be fair to predict a value but the relevant comparator might be 996/7 values, exige etc. The fly in the ointment could be boxster and contemporary competitor values like the 350/370Z but only time will tell.
Just as with 996 as time passes engine issues will be better understood, and as more and more become second cars perhaps less of an issue.
My advice would be to be sure the Cayman S is what you want, and if so, go and buy one. But the one that suits you, enjoy it and look after it. When it comes to sell, either price it lower than its close competition or make sure it is a cut above the average.
Last word: I'd be amazed if the warranty on any 10 year old car was "water tight". Remember aftermarket warranties do not cover things that wear out. They normally cover 'manufacturing defects' (the better ones will cover failure of things that don't 'wear' but watch the maximum labour rate they'll pay). Go in with your eyes open.
In my opinion a well maintained, unmolested early Cayman S is likely to be a very desirable car to enthusiasts. It wouldn't be fair to predict a value but the relevant comparator might be 996/7 values, exige etc. The fly in the ointment could be boxster and contemporary competitor values like the 350/370Z but only time will tell.
Just as with 996 as time passes engine issues will be better understood, and as more and more become second cars perhaps less of an issue.
My advice would be to be sure the Cayman S is what you want, and if so, go and buy one. But the one that suits you, enjoy it and look after it. When it comes to sell, either price it lower than its close competition or make sure it is a cut above the average.
Last word: I'd be amazed if the warranty on any 10 year old car was "water tight". Remember aftermarket warranties do not cover things that wear out. They normally cover 'manufacturing defects' (the better ones will cover failure of things that don't 'wear' but watch the maximum labour rate they'll pay). Go in with your eyes open.
^^^^^ Water tight warranty, sorry not sounding rude but they don't exist.
When I purchased my car, I also got a warranty wise policy with wear and tear exclusion. Ie they can't claim its wear and tear. Cost £1200 pounds for 3 years.
Now obviously they don't have the policy wording in the dealership. I got it in the post and reading there t&c the wear and tear exclusion becomes void at 10 years or 100k miles. Well that meant 8 months for me.
Further reading showed that at 10 years/100k miles the list of items not covered suddenly becomes very extensive, very extensive indeed. Forget the engine, forget stability and power steering rack.
There subsequential loss policy is absurd. I found an example of where an oil leak had caused a cam belt to snap due to degradation. They happily paid the cost of the seal £5, surprise surprise they wouldn't bah for a new belt (consequential due to oil seal failure), let alone for a top end rebuild to replace a load of valves. ,consequential loss of the belt snapping.
Be VERY VERY cautious if anybody saying you have a watertight warranty. Wait until you try and claim £10k for a Cayman engine rebuild, your watertight warranty will have more holes than the titanic and they will undoubtly drag there heals through any court you try and recover your costs from.
In the end I cancelled my policy (within 28 days) and put the £1200 in the bank incase I have a fault. When I come to sell the car if nothing has gone wrong then I'm 1200 quid better off.
I figure the chances of a successful claim were minuscule.
When I purchased my car, I also got a warranty wise policy with wear and tear exclusion. Ie they can't claim its wear and tear. Cost £1200 pounds for 3 years.
Now obviously they don't have the policy wording in the dealership. I got it in the post and reading there t&c the wear and tear exclusion becomes void at 10 years or 100k miles. Well that meant 8 months for me.
Further reading showed that at 10 years/100k miles the list of items not covered suddenly becomes very extensive, very extensive indeed. Forget the engine, forget stability and power steering rack.
There subsequential loss policy is absurd. I found an example of where an oil leak had caused a cam belt to snap due to degradation. They happily paid the cost of the seal £5, surprise surprise they wouldn't bah for a new belt (consequential due to oil seal failure), let alone for a top end rebuild to replace a load of valves. ,consequential loss of the belt snapping.
Be VERY VERY cautious if anybody saying you have a watertight warranty. Wait until you try and claim £10k for a Cayman engine rebuild, your watertight warranty will have more holes than the titanic and they will undoubtly drag there heals through any court you try and recover your costs from.
In the end I cancelled my policy (within 28 days) and put the £1200 in the bank incase I have a fault. When I come to sell the car if nothing has gone wrong then I'm 1200 quid better off.
I figure the chances of a successful claim were minuscule.
Edited by Markbarry1977 on Saturday 2nd April 10:58
Thnks guys! Couldn't come to an agreement on the price of car, they were looking for 18 odd k and I couldn't see the value myself on an 06 and there was no budging!
Found one which I could get a great deal on but again cars done 70k miles (although fully loaded and 57 plate) which due to miles for me means lots of money potentially - that combined with a dodgy garage and I am now out of options for now!
It's a shame but I'm in now rush, probably look at some gen2 boxsters to see what the offer - hopefully a little more for the money but it's a shame as Cayman seemed such a lovely car!
Thanks for the advise! Once again i continue the search!
Found one which I could get a great deal on but again cars done 70k miles (although fully loaded and 57 plate) which due to miles for me means lots of money potentially - that combined with a dodgy garage and I am now out of options for now!
It's a shame but I'm in now rush, probably look at some gen2 boxsters to see what the offer - hopefully a little more for the money but it's a shame as Cayman seemed such a lovely car!
Thanks for the advise! Once again i continue the search!
Just to add to some of the other responses, age isn't the issue it's how it's been looked after.
I bought a 2001 Boxster S a couple of years back, seemed decent condition and I paid the going rate for it, about £6.5k. Unfortunately the main hidden issue (cracked cylinder head) didn't become evident for about 4 months and with that, and all the other bits I had to do the get it 'right' , it cost me another £6k on top of the purchase over the first year. I've still got to swap out the heavily corroded exhaust system but I've got one sitting in the garage ready to go on this week.
Then it's all sorted... and drives as well as I remember the one I bought new back in 2001 did.
I bought a 2001 Boxster S a couple of years back, seemed decent condition and I paid the going rate for it, about £6.5k. Unfortunately the main hidden issue (cracked cylinder head) didn't become evident for about 4 months and with that, and all the other bits I had to do the get it 'right' , it cost me another £6k on top of the purchase over the first year. I've still got to swap out the heavily corroded exhaust system but I've got one sitting in the garage ready to go on this week.
Then it's all sorted... and drives as well as I remember the one I bought new back in 2001 did.
Just bought a 2005 Boxter 2.7 today with 42K mls and in outstanding condition with full OPC/specialist history. It was a private sale and the seller was a very genuine guy who had reservations about selling but nevertheless took the decision.
Three days earlier I tried a 2011 PDK 2.9 with 48K mls and double the price (£21K v £10K). The difference in condition was marked indeed. The newer car had been unloved with three car park dings, badly stonechipped body and tired interior. Fair to say I know a mint 2011 would cost more than £21K but I was keen to see this car and would have bought had it been tidy.
Compare this experience with the Boxter I bought today. Upon seeing it for the first time on Friday in the flesh my first thought was "bloody hell, it's a minter". When I test drove it I enjoyed every second. The engine still felt tight, the gearbox beautifully slick and the steering precise. We agreed a price and I collected this afternoon.
OK it's a Boxter and not a Cayman, and it's a 2.7, not an 'S', but I do know this.....I could spend a long time looking for a car in as good as nick as this 11yo example, and I don't expect to lose much in depreciation over the next few yours either. I do expect the usual bills for wear and tear items, hopefully nothing worse but nothing is guaranteed, literally! I did set out last year initially looking for a 996 but was put off by the price appreciation over the last 6 months and seeing lots of tired examples. I understand we're coming into the season and the urge to buy is strong but if I've learned anything over the past few months it is the value of patience. Always buy on condition and you shouldn't go far wrong. If in doubt, walk. Sorry for rambling but I just wanted to tell my tale. Good Luck with your search.
Three days earlier I tried a 2011 PDK 2.9 with 48K mls and double the price (£21K v £10K). The difference in condition was marked indeed. The newer car had been unloved with three car park dings, badly stonechipped body and tired interior. Fair to say I know a mint 2011 would cost more than £21K but I was keen to see this car and would have bought had it been tidy.
Compare this experience with the Boxter I bought today. Upon seeing it for the first time on Friday in the flesh my first thought was "bloody hell, it's a minter". When I test drove it I enjoyed every second. The engine still felt tight, the gearbox beautifully slick and the steering precise. We agreed a price and I collected this afternoon.
OK it's a Boxter and not a Cayman, and it's a 2.7, not an 'S', but I do know this.....I could spend a long time looking for a car in as good as nick as this 11yo example, and I don't expect to lose much in depreciation over the next few yours either. I do expect the usual bills for wear and tear items, hopefully nothing worse but nothing is guaranteed, literally! I did set out last year initially looking for a 996 but was put off by the price appreciation over the last 6 months and seeing lots of tired examples. I understand we're coming into the season and the urge to buy is strong but if I've learned anything over the past few months it is the value of patience. Always buy on condition and you shouldn't go far wrong. If in doubt, walk. Sorry for rambling but I just wanted to tell my tale. Good Luck with your search.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Your point above is why I've kept the Boxster despite having also bought a similar aged XKR. I just couldn't bring myself to sell the Boxster on knowing that it's now bloody well sorted and as it should be, my OH now uses it as her 'toy' car. Not sure when we'll sell it, but we're certainly not in a hurry to do so, it needs to do some proper miles to justify how much it's cost us. Oh, and when I was trying to get to the root of it's issues it slowly became apparent that the cracked cylinder head had been investigated by at least the previous two owners, who had both decided to move it on rather than get it fixed or scrapped. Thanks to them for leaving me to be the one with the big bill.
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