Porsche the new BMW ?
Discussion
Porsche is no longer an aspirational brand but something fairly ordinary, diluted, mainstream and dare I say it, mundane. Where I live almost every Boxster and 991 you see is driven by a housewife and every third car is a cayenne or a macan with a family in it. There is nothing cool or upscale about being in a porsche as there once was. The days of a Porsche being special are long gone. Does anyone share this view or are you all still drinking the kool aid ? I have now got to the point where i have driven most of the modern stuff and am fully convinced that as a driver I am simply not interested in any of them and my heart will remain purely with the older cars.
My comments also do take into account the current GT cars. You can't wheel them out as a counter. In my opinion, with branding and the media being what they are these days, we've all been made to think that they are special but they simply do not have the feedack or level of challenge and reward that makes for a really good car. The inevitable dumbing down and commercialisation of the GT car is something that's happened at a slow imperceptible rate so what you have now is a whole generation of people kidding themselves that the cars are the real deal.
I don't want to think any of this but having sampled nearly all of the latest and greatest that's my unavoidable conclusion. Am I alone ?
My comments also do take into account the current GT cars. You can't wheel them out as a counter. In my opinion, with branding and the media being what they are these days, we've all been made to think that they are special but they simply do not have the feedack or level of challenge and reward that makes for a really good car. The inevitable dumbing down and commercialisation of the GT car is something that's happened at a slow imperceptible rate so what you have now is a whole generation of people kidding themselves that the cars are the real deal.
I don't want to think any of this but having sampled nearly all of the latest and greatest that's my unavoidable conclusion. Am I alone ?
Edited by Shazbat on Sunday 3rd April 18:26
Shazbat said:
Porsche is no longer an aspirational brand but something fairly ordinary, diluted, mainstream and dare I say it, mundane. Where I live almost every Boxster and 991 you see is driven by a housewife and every third car is a cayenne or a macan with a family in it. There is nothing cool or upscale about being in a porsche as there once was. The days of a Porsche being special are long gone. Does anyone share this view or are you all still drinking the kool aid? I have now got to the point where i have driven most of the modern stuff and am fully convinced that as a driver I am simply not interested in any of them and my heart will remain purely with the older cars.
My comments also do take into account the current GT cars. You can't wheel them out as a counter. In my opinion, with branding and the media being what they are these days, we've all been made to think that they are special but they simply do not have the feedack or level of challenge and reward that makes for a really good car. The inevitable dumbing down and commercialisation of the GT car is something that's happened at a slow imperceptible rate so what you have now is a whole generation of people kidding themselves that the cars are the real deal.
I don't want to think any of this but having sampled nearly all of the latest and greatest that's my unavoidable conclusion. Am I alone ?
Or a third option - that we just have a different view to you?!My comments also do take into account the current GT cars. You can't wheel them out as a counter. In my opinion, with branding and the media being what they are these days, we've all been made to think that they are special but they simply do not have the feedack or level of challenge and reward that makes for a really good car. The inevitable dumbing down and commercialisation of the GT car is something that's happened at a slow imperceptible rate so what you have now is a whole generation of people kidding themselves that the cars are the real deal.
I don't want to think any of this but having sampled nearly all of the latest and greatest that's my unavoidable conclusion. Am I alone ?
Edited by Shazbat on Sunday 3rd April 18:26
I agree i no longer find them special i,m sad to say after owning many. Twenty years ago they where special and a lot more rare. Also i just can not understand that they still have this massive following when they put out cars with design faults in the engines, no end of warranty restrictions. Would i buy another i hope not too!
Porsche a car you would not want to own with out warranty and even then you should be worried.
Porsche a car you would not want to own with out warranty and even then you should be worried.
cayman-black said:
I agree i no longer find them special i,m sad to say after owning many. Twenty years ago they where special and a lot more rare. Also i just can not understand that they still have this massive following when they put out cars with design faults in the engines, no end of warranty restrictions. Would i buy another i hope not too!
Porsche a car you would not want to own with out warranty and even then you should be worried.
The Porsche warranty is one of the most comprehensive you can get - you just need to keep it standard and have it serviced by Porsche. Seems reasonable?Porsche a car you would not want to own with out warranty and even then you should be worried.
Rewind to 2005, Porsche sell 12,000 cars in the UK (Boxster, 911, Cayenne & a handful of Cayman)
Fast Forward to 2015 & Porsche sell 12,500 cars in the UK except this time they are spread between 918, 911, Cayman, Boxster, Panamera, Cayenne & Macan.
Everything except the Cayenne has shrunk in volume during the period. Not sure wether that makes a 911 more or less exclusive than it was ten years ago.
I accept exclusivity and aspiration are two (very) divergent things yet whenever I see a 'coolest brand' top ten with Aston Martin anywhere in it I can't help but think why? Couldn't ever imagine aspiring to own one. On the other hand I'm not half looking forward to my GT4.
So yes personal taste and almost everyone here will have a different opinion.
Had the pleasure of a 991.2 C4S this weekend, quite a bit (a lot) better than the 996 C2 I sold approx. ten years ago. Can't imagine a better daily driver.
Fast Forward to 2015 & Porsche sell 12,500 cars in the UK except this time they are spread between 918, 911, Cayman, Boxster, Panamera, Cayenne & Macan.
Everything except the Cayenne has shrunk in volume during the period. Not sure wether that makes a 911 more or less exclusive than it was ten years ago.
I accept exclusivity and aspiration are two (very) divergent things yet whenever I see a 'coolest brand' top ten with Aston Martin anywhere in it I can't help but think why? Couldn't ever imagine aspiring to own one. On the other hand I'm not half looking forward to my GT4.
So yes personal taste and almost everyone here will have a different opinion.
Had the pleasure of a 991.2 C4S this weekend, quite a bit (a lot) better than the 996 C2 I sold approx. ten years ago. Can't imagine a better daily driver.
Edited by 23AJK on Sunday 3rd April 21:14
Most prestige brands have lost 'exclusivity' over the years, as they have accommodated ever widening markets. Audi, BMW, Mercedes.... really, their ubiquitous model ranges are now so vast that they are completely confusing.
Yes, Porsche have moved with the times, but to their credit, all their models are at the top of their game. Whether you want the best small roadster, the best SUV, the best junior Supercar, the best GT..... Porsche are the class leaders, they don't make a disappointing car.
IMO, if you want a degree of 'exclusivity' buy a really nice classic aircooled Porsche, and everyone will know you've got good taste
Yes, Porsche have moved with the times, but to their credit, all their models are at the top of their game. Whether you want the best small roadster, the best SUV, the best junior Supercar, the best GT..... Porsche are the class leaders, they don't make a disappointing car.
IMO, if you want a degree of 'exclusivity' buy a really nice classic aircooled Porsche, and everyone will know you've got good taste
Edited by Koln-RS on Sunday 3rd April 21:09
Good news is that there are tons of old Porsches for those who want them .Most of the cars ever built still exist. Very valid choices.
I have no idea what upscale means, and if its important to be more exclusive than someone else, then I suppose it means something.
Of course there are many more Porsches than there were, but they make good cars. I have had a number of them as well as many other marques. and have three of them currently. I have heard the usual stuff every time a new car comes out..."not as good as the old one. Not a real Porsche. Not as good as air cooled. Not manual. Too many electronics. ", Happens all the time. If it were all true the only good Porsche would be a Gmund 356 and it was all downhill since.
I am not buying exclusivity but a car than gives me driving enjoyment. If there are lots of them, so be it. Some of the cars of my past like the E39 M5, or way back, the Lancia Fulvia HF or lots in between were not very exclusive or upscale, but in their time provided me with driving satisfaction. Similarly, I like the Porsches I have. There are far more exclusive cars of course, but they are not Mercedes to Bentleys or the like. Maybe a Koenigssegg or Pagani , something well beyond my means.
Aspirational merely means that it is a little beyond reach I suppose, but you might get there. There are certainly people for whom a Porsche ( or many other slightly more expensive marques ) could be called aspirational.
I have no idea what upscale means, and if its important to be more exclusive than someone else, then I suppose it means something.
Of course there are many more Porsches than there were, but they make good cars. I have had a number of them as well as many other marques. and have three of them currently. I have heard the usual stuff every time a new car comes out..."not as good as the old one. Not a real Porsche. Not as good as air cooled. Not manual. Too many electronics. ", Happens all the time. If it were all true the only good Porsche would be a Gmund 356 and it was all downhill since.
I am not buying exclusivity but a car than gives me driving enjoyment. If there are lots of them, so be it. Some of the cars of my past like the E39 M5, or way back, the Lancia Fulvia HF or lots in between were not very exclusive or upscale, but in their time provided me with driving satisfaction. Similarly, I like the Porsches I have. There are far more exclusive cars of course, but they are not Mercedes to Bentleys or the like. Maybe a Koenigssegg or Pagani , something well beyond my means.
Aspirational merely means that it is a little beyond reach I suppose, but you might get there. There are certainly people for whom a Porsche ( or many other slightly more expensive marques ) could be called aspirational.
Shazbat said:
. The days of a Porsche being special are long gone.....current GT cars. In my opinion, with branding and the media being what they are these days, we've all been made to think that they are special but they simply do not have the feedack or level of challenge and reward that makes for a really good car. The inevitable dumbing down and commercialisation of the GT car is something that's happened at a slow imperceptible rate so what you have now is a whole generation of people kidding themselves that the cars are the real deal.
So the 'quality' media have all got it totally wrong with their widely reported and extensive testing and results over the past few years showing various GT cars winning their class outright despite extremely stiff and in some cases far more expensive competition. Edited by Shazbat on Sunday 3rd April 18:26
Not to mention all those poor deluded and disgruntled owners who have clearly been ripped off big time and bought inferior vehicles even some by paying vast premiums second hand due to the sheer unprecedented demand and vast capabilities of these cars not from their own judgement but solely based on unsubstantiated media hype.
Nice try but seems a touch unlikely I would wager.......
:Nothing to do with the cars, but with affluence generally. More people can afford Porsches than ever before, so it's not that they are an uncommon sight or that anyone driving one must be especially well off.
That said, more people affording one, so Porsche makes more of them.
But I definitely agree the magic of Porsche is diluted today because of the SUV effect. People create associations with brands, the "image" and whereas before Porsche = sports car now Porsche is more likely = SUV.
That said, more people affording one, so Porsche makes more of them.
But I definitely agree the magic of Porsche is diluted today because of the SUV effect. People create associations with brands, the "image" and whereas before Porsche = sports car now Porsche is more likely = SUV.
23AJK said:
And forgive me asking but what the hell is kool aid?
Google Jonestown - refers to mass suicide in the 70's in South America. A religious cult got everybody to kill themselves by drinking kook aid. Now taken to mean blindly following whatever you've been told or bought in to.Interesting post. As a lot of folk are saying people look for different things in cars. Personally I like exclusivity and when looking for my current car the search started with a 911. There are so many where I live (Chelmsford) it just sapped a lot of the 'special' feeling from the car it's self. I know manufacturers need popular cars to make money to develop the more special cars but seeing many MANY cayenne, panamera and macans around does devalue the brand a bit for me.
996TT02 said:
Nothing to do with the cars, but with affluence generally. More people can afford Porsches than ever before, so it's not that they are an uncommon sight or that anyone driving one must be especially well off.
That said, more people affording one, so Porsche makes more of them.
As quoted above, production levels for the 911 and Boxster for 2013 (most recent data on Wikipedia) were substantially lower than for 2006 & 2007.That said, more people affording one, so Porsche makes more of them.
996TT02 said:
But I definitely agree the magic of Porsche is diluted today because of the SUV effect. People create associations with brands, the "image" and whereas before Porsche = sports car now Porsche is more likely = SUV.
Nonsense - some people might choose to buy a Cayenne or Maccan because of Porsche's Sports car reputation, but the vast majority of people, if asked, would relate Porsche to Sports cars (and Land Rover to SUVs).I think Porsche may be the new car of choice for the old BMW driver?
I had nine BMWs from 1986 to 2014. The last was a 2003 E46 330ci MSport Cab but because I couldn't bear Bangle's new fangled "flame surfacing" I didn't buy another since then.
Looking at everything available in the BMW range in 2014 I found nothing appealing. The "Driving Machine" had disappeared. Quality had gone downhill.
I drove a few 987.2 cars then, but didn't buy, but the 981 Cayman caught my attention and I love it.
Never owned an older Porsche, this is my first, but I'm as satisfied with this car as an earlier BMW. I guess the older Porsches were better driving machines than their BMW counterparts, but we don't all want out and out performance, some like me just want comfort, speed, economy and quality. The essence of a BMW driver?
I had nine BMWs from 1986 to 2014. The last was a 2003 E46 330ci MSport Cab but because I couldn't bear Bangle's new fangled "flame surfacing" I didn't buy another since then.
Looking at everything available in the BMW range in 2014 I found nothing appealing. The "Driving Machine" had disappeared. Quality had gone downhill.
I drove a few 987.2 cars then, but didn't buy, but the 981 Cayman caught my attention and I love it.
Never owned an older Porsche, this is my first, but I'm as satisfied with this car as an earlier BMW. I guess the older Porsches were better driving machines than their BMW counterparts, but we don't all want out and out performance, some like me just want comfort, speed, economy and quality. The essence of a BMW driver?
Edited by DJMC on Sunday 3rd April 22:22
It doesn't bother me in the slightest. Macans and Cayennes aren't real Porsches. Porsche just makes money by putting its badge on some VAG vehicles. I've no problem with it. Then again, I am not at all insecure or 'aspirational'.
Drive a few BMWs and Porsches (real ones) and report back. BMW are leagues below Porsche in terms of quality and appeal as drivers' cars. I own one of each and the gulf in class is enormous.
Drive a few BMWs and Porsches (real ones) and report back. BMW are leagues below Porsche in terms of quality and appeal as drivers' cars. I own one of each and the gulf in class is enormous.
ORD said:
It doesn't bother me in the slightest. Macans and Cayennes aren't real Porsches. Porsche just makes money by putting its badge on some VAG vehicles. I've no problem with it. Then again, I am not at all insecure or 'aspirational'.
Drive a few BMWs and Porsches (real ones) and report back. BMW are leagues below Porsche in terms of quality and appeal as drivers' cars. I own one of each and the gulf in class is enormous.
+1 - there's no comparison in terms of driving experience of the Cayman R to a contemporary BMW. They're very different, each good in their own way but the Cayman is far better to drive even if an M5 is an amazingly impressive bit of kit.Drive a few BMWs and Porsches (real ones) and report back. BMW are leagues below Porsche in terms of quality and appeal as drivers' cars. I own one of each and the gulf in class is enormous.
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