Worrying obsession with the E46 M3
Discussion
I'm lucky enough to own an E30 325i and an E92 330i (N53 272 PS). I love the E30 and I like the E92. The E30 puts a smile on my face whenever I use it, the E92 really has to be going some to be fun otherwise it feels a bit lardy. Both have manual gearboxes and are looked after and want for nothing, the suspension components are in good order with a fresh Bilstein / Eibach setup and new bushes and arms on both. Some of the dullness with the E92 might be as it's the daily car and spends its life doing daily duties. The new suspension helped but something is still missing, it is not the pace but the involvement. Any journey in the E30 is fun but not so in the E92, you don't need license destroying speed to enjoy a B road.
I thought about getting an E36 M3 but they are too old / rare / nice for daily use. I really like the E46 M3 and find myself reading reviews online, looking through PH forum posts and searching the classifieds despite not being in a position to buy. The E9X M3 looks great too but there's more of a split in how good they are to drive and if they are as good as the E46 M3.
I went for the E92 330i as it was a balance of pace and sensible running costs. I've had it for 18 months and the love is still not there, I'm kidding myself that I am 100% happy with it but I know I am not. My worry is that as time goes on the E46 M3 values will rise from what must surely be the floor price up and up, and (first world problems) I'll have to look at an E9X M3 presuming they follow the same depreciation pattern. So, man maths means it would be worth getting an E46 M3 now to replace the E92 330i for daily use. The E9X M3 might be brilliant, I've not driven an M car before, but the E46 looks to be a bargain. I'm interested in the way the cars drive rather than having the M badge on the boot. Is there enough of a step up to justify running one only or am I barking up the wrong tree for a daily?
MPG isn't an issue as I'm doing ~12,000 miles per year but the M parts tax and fancypants brakes and tyres worry me with an M car. I'd be using the brilliant independent garage that I go to for all jobs. Realistically my E92 is worth £6k on a good day to an enthusiast buyer and I'd be looking at a higher mileage E46 M3 (100k+, to lower the price and so that I do not feel guilty using it). £7k would be my budget to give me a slush fund to do the initial service and mop up on bits it may need. The big worries are the E46 subframe delights and rear arch rust. The other issues seem to be standard, "buy on condition and history" stuff.
None of this is entirely serious but I am a danger to myself with cars and impulse buying.
I thought about getting an E36 M3 but they are too old / rare / nice for daily use. I really like the E46 M3 and find myself reading reviews online, looking through PH forum posts and searching the classifieds despite not being in a position to buy. The E9X M3 looks great too but there's more of a split in how good they are to drive and if they are as good as the E46 M3.
I went for the E92 330i as it was a balance of pace and sensible running costs. I've had it for 18 months and the love is still not there, I'm kidding myself that I am 100% happy with it but I know I am not. My worry is that as time goes on the E46 M3 values will rise from what must surely be the floor price up and up, and (first world problems) I'll have to look at an E9X M3 presuming they follow the same depreciation pattern. So, man maths means it would be worth getting an E46 M3 now to replace the E92 330i for daily use. The E9X M3 might be brilliant, I've not driven an M car before, but the E46 looks to be a bargain. I'm interested in the way the cars drive rather than having the M badge on the boot. Is there enough of a step up to justify running one only or am I barking up the wrong tree for a daily?
MPG isn't an issue as I'm doing ~12,000 miles per year but the M parts tax and fancypants brakes and tyres worry me with an M car. I'd be using the brilliant independent garage that I go to for all jobs. Realistically my E92 is worth £6k on a good day to an enthusiast buyer and I'd be looking at a higher mileage E46 M3 (100k+, to lower the price and so that I do not feel guilty using it). £7k would be my budget to give me a slush fund to do the initial service and mop up on bits it may need. The big worries are the E46 subframe delights and rear arch rust. The other issues seem to be standard, "buy on condition and history" stuff.
None of this is entirely serious but I am a danger to myself with cars and impulse buying.
A year ago I had a few grand to spend and wanted a coupe bmw of sorts. I ended up with a 330i e92 manual msport too and still really like it.
Sure, it's not as mad as some cars out there, but for daily use it's just what i want. Mine has the n53 and has been (touch wood) totally fine in the time I've had it.
My bro has an e46 m3 coupe and I have previously had e46 3 series cars. The e92 is much more modern in comparison and really not that far off the performance of the m3. I think the n53 330 has more low down urgency but the m3 really comes to life high up in the rev range.
The m3 is an awesome car though and it would make a good daily. Bes thing to do is go test drive one and see what you think.
Sure, it's not as mad as some cars out there, but for daily use it's just what i want. Mine has the n53 and has been (touch wood) totally fine in the time I've had it.
My bro has an e46 m3 coupe and I have previously had e46 3 series cars. The e92 is much more modern in comparison and really not that far off the performance of the m3. I think the n53 330 has more low down urgency but the m3 really comes to life high up in the rev range.
The m3 is an awesome car though and it would make a good daily. Bes thing to do is go test drive one and see what you think.
nitrodave said:
A year ago I had a few grand to spend and wanted a coupe bmw of sorts. I ended up with a 330i e92 manual msport too and still really like it.
Sure, it's not as mad as some cars out there, but for daily use it's just what i want. Mine has the n53 and has been (touch wood) totally fine in the time I've had it.
My bro has an e46 m3 coupe and I have previously had e46 3 series cars. The e92 is much more modern in comparison and really not that far off the performance of the m3. I think the n53 330 has more low down urgency but the m3 really comes to life high up in the rev range.
The m3 is an awesome car though and it would make a good daily. Bes thing to do is go test drive one and see what you think.
Mine is the N53 as well, it's a cracker. It's a 2009/59 lateish model, bought it on 126k and I'm on 147k now. Engine is great and I think the N53 problems are exaggerated and linked to faulty early coils and injectors, the later parts sorted things out. Or so I hope... It's a great car but it seems clinical rather than passionate.Sure, it's not as mad as some cars out there, but for daily use it's just what i want. Mine has the n53 and has been (touch wood) totally fine in the time I've had it.
My bro has an e46 m3 coupe and I have previously had e46 3 series cars. The e92 is much more modern in comparison and really not that far off the performance of the m3. I think the n53 330 has more low down urgency but the m3 really comes to life high up in the rev range.
The m3 is an awesome car though and it would make a good daily. Bes thing to do is go test drive one and see what you think.
I think the only way to scratch the itch is drive an E46 M3. I wouldn't like the dishonesty of visiting a private seller to test drive but not buy. If there's a friendly PHer who would take me out as a passenger in an E46 M3 that would be appreciated as a starting point. Anybody in the Cheshire area?
The E46 M3 is a cool car, very driver-focused compared with the E92. Probably the better car to be in for a back-road blast. It will no doubt go down as a classic.
One thing to watch out for is they appear to be doing head gaskets now, and don't often show the signs you'd normally expect. I don't know how much of an issue it is but I bought mine having done all the research, getting one that had been looked after/sorted, and then found the head gasket went about a thousand miles later. It's apparently quite common on the CSLs but now becoming an issue on the regular car. The odd thing was I had my VANOS inspected at the same time and it was completely solid, not about-to-fall-apart as most people would have you expect at that mileage (133K).
The good news is there are lots of them. With care they take the miles well, be wary as at the 7K price range I see a lot of dogs amongst the bargains.
One thing to watch out for is they appear to be doing head gaskets now, and don't often show the signs you'd normally expect. I don't know how much of an issue it is but I bought mine having done all the research, getting one that had been looked after/sorted, and then found the head gasket went about a thousand miles later. It's apparently quite common on the CSLs but now becoming an issue on the regular car. The odd thing was I had my VANOS inspected at the same time and it was completely solid, not about-to-fall-apart as most people would have you expect at that mileage (133K).
The good news is there are lots of them. With care they take the miles well, be wary as at the 7K price range I see a lot of dogs amongst the bargains.
I also think the m3 is a good buy now. I dont think they are going to hike up in price at a rapid rate, but you could buy one, use it for a couple of years and only suffer running costs.
The main thing the m3 has over the e92 is the limited slip diff. Even though i only have a 330i too, i think that it could do with one and would make it a lot of fun if it had it. Too often one wheel spins up.
I might be selling mine soon, but if i were to keep it, i'd consider fitting a LSD at £1500ish.
The main thing the m3 has over the e92 is the limited slip diff. Even though i only have a 330i too, i think that it could do with one and would make it a lot of fun if it had it. Too often one wheel spins up.
I might be selling mine soon, but if i were to keep it, i'd consider fitting a LSD at £1500ish.
I would try and budget more than your proposed £7K, if you look around there are not so many tidy cars left in this price bracket, many are pushing £10K, and really mint cars are now £14K - £20K also with mileages of over 100K you run a much higher risk of having a load of bills the first time it sees a ramp at a indy, or goes for an mot.
Watch for the usual issues some major some wear and tear:
-Vanos (If its going then budget £800 for it to be repaired
-Head gasket (If it needs doing budget £1500)
-Exhaust corroding on the centre to back box - mine went on the bracket/flanges and cant be repaired system is nearly £2000 for a bmw supplied one - I fitted a milltek for around £1200
-Rear subframe (if its going budget £1000)
-Brake discs/pads (Budget for £800+ a set)
-Alloys 19" Diamond cut (most are tatty and have the lacquer lifting) Again to factory refurbish budget best part of £600+
-Tyres (£200 rears and £155 fronts) for the correct continental M3 more for michelin pilots)
They are an awesome car and the last of the hand build straight six engines they love revs and sound great. I've had mine 9 years now, and its sorted, done a lot of work to keep it mint and dont plan selling it, if you were nearer i'd be happy to take you for a spin and point out the areas to look for issues, but buy with your head, and look for the best car you can afford, as i said try save more and get the best car for your budget.
Despite what many say they do represent a good investment for a low owner, low mile car in good condition, and there are getting fewer of these good mint cars around and as such prices seem to be rising, i would just try and be sensible with regard the budget and running costs, i only use mine as a weekend car and its staying in mint condition. As you'd expect if you are using this sort of car daily its likely more could go wrong and need repairs some parts are cheap (ish) but as listed above some major jobs rack up big bills.
Bear in mind servicing it follows a pattern of oil then inspection 1 then oil and inspection 2 valve clearances need doing on the inspection services and oil used should be castrol edge 10w60 try insist on it wherever you get the services done, i would advise using a bmw specialist who knows the M cars and the service routines, and ideally an indy who has a full shim kit otherwise they cant do the tappets correctly should they need adjusting. Main dealers charge £200 oil, £679 Inspection 1, and £900+ for inspection 2.
Anyway good luck with your m3 hunt!
Andy
Watch for the usual issues some major some wear and tear:
-Vanos (If its going then budget £800 for it to be repaired
-Head gasket (If it needs doing budget £1500)
-Exhaust corroding on the centre to back box - mine went on the bracket/flanges and cant be repaired system is nearly £2000 for a bmw supplied one - I fitted a milltek for around £1200
-Rear subframe (if its going budget £1000)
-Brake discs/pads (Budget for £800+ a set)
-Alloys 19" Diamond cut (most are tatty and have the lacquer lifting) Again to factory refurbish budget best part of £600+
-Tyres (£200 rears and £155 fronts) for the correct continental M3 more for michelin pilots)
They are an awesome car and the last of the hand build straight six engines they love revs and sound great. I've had mine 9 years now, and its sorted, done a lot of work to keep it mint and dont plan selling it, if you were nearer i'd be happy to take you for a spin and point out the areas to look for issues, but buy with your head, and look for the best car you can afford, as i said try save more and get the best car for your budget.
Despite what many say they do represent a good investment for a low owner, low mile car in good condition, and there are getting fewer of these good mint cars around and as such prices seem to be rising, i would just try and be sensible with regard the budget and running costs, i only use mine as a weekend car and its staying in mint condition. As you'd expect if you are using this sort of car daily its likely more could go wrong and need repairs some parts are cheap (ish) but as listed above some major jobs rack up big bills.
Bear in mind servicing it follows a pattern of oil then inspection 1 then oil and inspection 2 valve clearances need doing on the inspection services and oil used should be castrol edge 10w60 try insist on it wherever you get the services done, i would advise using a bmw specialist who knows the M cars and the service routines, and ideally an indy who has a full shim kit otherwise they cant do the tappets correctly should they need adjusting. Main dealers charge £200 oil, £679 Inspection 1, and £900+ for inspection 2.
Anyway good luck with your m3 hunt!
Andy
Schermerhorn said:
nwates said:
E46 M3 is a good investment
If you buy a good clean example, it is a good preserver of money. However, unless the market goes bananas, values won't go up dramatically. Like it was said avoid, you'll only suffer the running costs of it.
The OP said he was looking at £7k cars. These will likely have done 120k+ miles. In a few years who's going to pay more than £7k for a 15ish year old E46 with the best part of 150k miles on the clock?
That said, I do think anything thats done less than 50k will creep up. But again running costs will more than eat into any price increase.
I bought mine with just over 50k last year. In the 3 years I plan to keep it I don't expect to get it to 80k. I expect it not to have lost too much in value. BUT In that time it will need an inspection 1 maybe a 2, new breaks, new tyres, probably the vanos, head gasket and rear axle carrier fixing. Even if prices creep up. The cost of running it will more than wipe out any increase.
OP. Just get one bought and enjoy it. They are fabulous cars.
nwates said:
48Valves said:
In what way is it a good investment?
It will be worth more money in 2 yrs time than it is now Thanks for all the replies and insight into the E46 M3. I know they are a great car. High mileage doesn't scare me, I'd approach it with a "kitchen sink" attitude and replace and fix so that it will serve me well over time. The problem is... I can't afford to do it properly at the moment. I've restored my E30 325i and brought my E92 330i up to speed. Despite both being civilian non-M cars this has not been cheap. It makes no sense to flog the E92 now as it wouldn't give me the cash to get a nice E46 M3 and look after it properly.
One for the wish list! I hope I don't end up like the guy at work who nearly bought an air cooled 911, bottled it and now knows what he could have paid X years ago and is very upset (and still won't buy one)!
One for the wish list! I hope I don't end up like the guy at work who nearly bought an air cooled 911, bottled it and now knows what he could have paid X years ago and is very upset (and still won't buy one)!
andyman_2006 said:
...a bunch of stuff...
Spot on, fully agree with your views sir. I paid up for a well maintained example which was looked after by a chap on cutters who was absolutely fastidious.
Since having it, I've treated it to some tidy-up paint work (to take care of some stone chips and scratches), as well as a few upgrades, such as improving the HK stereo and swapping out the original seats for some recaro pole positions (in matching leather to the rest of the interior), etc
I think it's one of the best cars I've owned/driven.
Edited by Kananga on Wednesday 6th April 16:13
I did what the OP is looking to do, did my homework and purchased a 110k M3 Individual Vert for £5k 2 years ago.
Full history, factory bearing recall (twice !!) and Redish reinforced subframe, so far had the vanos rebuilt (AA contributed £500 so only cost me £300 of my own money) and ive had an inspection 2 at a local Indy.
Tyres and brakes are very reasonable lets face it most cars are running 18's and 19's these days, and a lets look at what RS4 discs cost !!!!
Ive had some paintwork done to tidy her up a little and was offered £6.5k cash by a local garage, so ive certainly not lost a great deal of money.
God get one and enjoy it.
Full history, factory bearing recall (twice !!) and Redish reinforced subframe, so far had the vanos rebuilt (AA contributed £500 so only cost me £300 of my own money) and ive had an inspection 2 at a local Indy.
Tyres and brakes are very reasonable lets face it most cars are running 18's and 19's these days, and a lets look at what RS4 discs cost !!!!
Ive had some paintwork done to tidy her up a little and was offered £6.5k cash by a local garage, so ive certainly not lost a great deal of money.
God get one and enjoy it.
48Valves said:
Schermerhorn said:
nwates said:
E46 M3 is a good investment
If you buy a good clean example, it is a good preserver of money. However, unless the market goes bananas, values won't go up dramatically. Like it was said avoid, you'll only suffer the running costs of it.
The OP said he was looking at £7k cars. These will likely have done 120k+ miles. In a few years who's going to pay more than £7k for a 15ish year old E46 with the best part of 150k miles on the clock?
That said, I do think anything thats done less than 50k will creep up. But again running costs will more than eat into any price increase.
I bought mine with just over 50k last year. In the 3 years I plan to keep it I don't expect to get it to 80k. I expect it not to have lost too much in value. BUT In that time it will need an inspection 1 maybe a 2, new breaks, new tyres, probably the vanos, head gasket and rear axle carrier fixing. Even if prices creep up. The cost of running it will more than wipe out any increase.
OP. Just get one bought and enjoy it. They are fabulous cars.
Except you wont actually lose your money, which you most certainly do with new cars, any car needs running and the more you use and drive it more chance of it going wrong.
Its a better investment than a ISA thats for sure, and you can drive it and have fun on a sunny Sunday, do that with an ISA!
Values will creep up, and this will be dragged up with the CSL prices, and modern classics in general look at prices of R5 turbos and Fiat uno turbos now, you could buy them for £900 10 years ago, they are £8K now,supply and demand. So i doubt you'll lose on an E36 or E46 M3 if you look after it and dont pile 100K miles on it in 3 years.
Andy
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