Discussion
Following from the power meters thread I have talked myself into getting an Ultegra 10sp groupset, upgrading my TT and taking the current 105 stuff of the TT and putting on my roadie.
I am having a mare sorting out the gear ratios to select. My current set up is:
Roadie - 8sp, 12-25 Cassette, 50/34 chainset
TT - 10sp, 11-25 cassette, 53/39 chainset
I find climbing on the TT bike hard and wishing I had another cog to bail out to so don't really want to put the current setup on that on the Roadie. I don't want to buy a compact Ultegra chainset as I want the top kit on the TT.
Would an 11-28 cassette and 53/39 chainset give me as good climbing as I currently have on the roadie? Should I go to a 30 cassette? Assume that would need a medium cage derailleur.
I know, lose weight, MTFU etc and I am doing that but don't want to be struggling on the climbs in the meantime.
I am having a mare sorting out the gear ratios to select. My current set up is:
Roadie - 8sp, 12-25 Cassette, 50/34 chainset
TT - 10sp, 11-25 cassette, 53/39 chainset
I find climbing on the TT bike hard and wishing I had another cog to bail out to so don't really want to put the current setup on that on the Roadie. I don't want to buy a compact Ultegra chainset as I want the top kit on the TT.
Would an 11-28 cassette and 53/39 chainset give me as good climbing as I currently have on the roadie? Should I go to a 30 cassette? Assume that would need a medium cage derailleur.
I know, lose weight, MTFU etc and I am doing that but don't want to be struggling on the climbs in the meantime.
944fan said:
Would an 11-28 cassette and 53/39 chainset give me as good climbing as I currently have on the roadie? Should I go to a 30 cassette?
Not really, 39/28 would give you a 0.72 ratio, the 34/25 gives 0.74 (higher=easier). 39/30 would be a bit easier at 0.77 though.944fan said:
Assume that would need a medium cage derailleur.
Yes, at the very least. There are a lot of things about mixing and matching chainrings/cassettes/derailleurs that I'm not 100% on though, especially when it gets to the extremes of what should be possible. Shimano's technical documents are exhaustive and exhausting, but it seems a lot of this is down to 'it isn't a recommended set up but it might work'.If you had a 39t front ring and 28t rear cassette it'd still be a little tougher than your current roadie set up I think.
Either buy the ultegra with a compact and use the ultegra front rings on the road bike, or buy the ultegra non-compact, but you'll have to buy other bits for your roadie as well.
Nothing wrong with using smaller gears! I run a compact 12-30, but I do a fair few hills, a regular of mine is 17% gradient.
Either buy the ultegra with a compact and use the ultegra front rings on the road bike, or buy the ultegra non-compact, but you'll have to buy other bits for your roadie as well.
Nothing wrong with using smaller gears! I run a compact 12-30, but I do a fair few hills, a regular of mine is 17% gradient.
Ignore the MTFU macho crap and get the ratios that are right for you. Yeah yeah, we all used to live in Sheffield and ride a 70" single speed over the Pennines every day, blah blah, but that's just custard. Get the right ratios and if that means spinning a bit then do it. Better that than be stuck with a gear that's no use on anything over a 10% gradient.
Shimanno say 28t is the biggest for either short or medium cage. Other thing to consider is I put on quite a lot of weight end of last year and intend on being a few stone lighter in the coming months.
28t is better than the 25 my TT has but not as easy as my current road set up. I suspect the 105 is abit lighter than the granite hewn crap on the roadie currently.
28t is better than the 25 my TT has but not as easy as my current road set up. I suspect the 105 is abit lighter than the granite hewn crap on the roadie currently.
944fan said:
Shimanno say 28t is the biggest for either short or medium cage. Other thing to consider is I put on quite a lot of weight end of last year and intend on being a few stone lighter in the coming months.
28t is better than the 25 my TT has but not as easy as my current road set up. I suspect the 105 is abit lighter than the granite hewn crap on the roadie currently.
Yeah, like I said the Shimano docs seem to be pretty conservative though, plenty of anecdotal reports of the Ultegra 30T working, some even with short-cage mechs e.g. http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40...28t is better than the 25 my TT has but not as easy as my current road set up. I suspect the 105 is abit lighter than the granite hewn crap on the roadie currently.
I think the problem is there are so many other variables in the mix that sometimes trial and error or a bit (lot?) of experience is the only way to tell if a certain combo will work. Makes buying parts online a bit of a gamble for folks like us though, maybe better to get a LBS involved?
Yeah I saw that thread, they all seem to be talking about a compact chainset though with a 30.
I think I will go with the 53/39 chainset and 11-28 cassette. That is between my TT bike and current roadie set up. But with increased power from training and losing weight I think that should be ok. I don't have too many mega hills to tackle. AT least I know that works and if it becomes a problem then I can always try a 30t cassette at a latter date.
I think I will go with the 53/39 chainset and 11-28 cassette. That is between my TT bike and current roadie set up. But with increased power from training and losing weight I think that should be ok. I don't have too many mega hills to tackle. AT least I know that works and if it becomes a problem then I can always try a 30t cassette at a latter date.
A bit late I know, seeing as how you've ordered already - but I used to ride my '96 Falcon Pro-Line with 53/39 x 13-23t gearing. Including a fair bit in North Yorkshire (2 years based in Ripon).
Later I bought a 50/34 x 11-25t (10 speed) bike, and later still I'm now on a 50/34 x 11-28t Ultegra 11 speed. If I had to recommend a "one for all" gear set it'd be that last one. It loses very little in the way of regularly usable gears at the top end, and has got me up everything the Surrey Hills has to offer. But I'm not a fast rider, and am not 'training' for anything specific.
Oh, and after a 6 year lay-up, the Falcon came back to life last year, with a new 53/39 x 11-28t 7 speed cassette set-up.
I would still consider moving down to a 52/36 or 50/34 on that old, heavy beast though. The new cassette is much more forgiving, but still room to bring those climbing ratios down to "knee friendly" levels. I had toyed with the idea of moving up to a 52/36 on the current carbon fibre Trek, but I've got so much room to get faster while riding the compact chainset that it wasn't worth the money/hassle of swapping it in the end, as I came to realise that it was very much the case that I was the limiting factor on my speed on the flat, not my 'low' gearing. That, plus I'd massively miss my 34 x 28 "twiddling up the hill" gear if I put bigger chainrings on the bike.
Later I bought a 50/34 x 11-25t (10 speed) bike, and later still I'm now on a 50/34 x 11-28t Ultegra 11 speed. If I had to recommend a "one for all" gear set it'd be that last one. It loses very little in the way of regularly usable gears at the top end, and has got me up everything the Surrey Hills has to offer. But I'm not a fast rider, and am not 'training' for anything specific.
Oh, and after a 6 year lay-up, the Falcon came back to life last year, with a new 53/39 x 11-28t 7 speed cassette set-up.
I would still consider moving down to a 52/36 or 50/34 on that old, heavy beast though. The new cassette is much more forgiving, but still room to bring those climbing ratios down to "knee friendly" levels. I had toyed with the idea of moving up to a 52/36 on the current carbon fibre Trek, but I've got so much room to get faster while riding the compact chainset that it wasn't worth the money/hassle of swapping it in the end, as I came to realise that it was very much the case that I was the limiting factor on my speed on the flat, not my 'low' gearing. That, plus I'd massively miss my 34 x 28 "twiddling up the hill" gear if I put bigger chainrings on the bike.
11-28 works fine with a standard short cage mech for me, shimano ARE conservative.
A useful trick can be to flip the B screw in the rear mech (if you don't know what that is, google) - that worked to get me a little more clearance for the 28. Range is less of an issue - I never go full cross chained, but if I did, I'd be a bit too slack in the extreme small front / small rear combo.
However, I wouldn't bother with the 11 if you want the 28, If you need a 28/27, you sure as heck don't need 53/11 (not that it matters that much) Personally I run a compact roadbike and 53/39 on the TT, with a 12-28 (or it might be a 12-27) I also pick and mix, my cassetes are usually 105 (possibly tiagra in some cases)
A useful trick can be to flip the B screw in the rear mech (if you don't know what that is, google) - that worked to get me a little more clearance for the 28. Range is less of an issue - I never go full cross chained, but if I did, I'd be a bit too slack in the extreme small front / small rear combo.
However, I wouldn't bother with the 11 if you want the 28, If you need a 28/27, you sure as heck don't need 53/11 (not that it matters that much) Personally I run a compact roadbike and 53/39 on the TT, with a 12-28 (or it might be a 12-27) I also pick and mix, my cassetes are usually 105 (possibly tiagra in some cases)
upsidedownmark said:
Personally I run 53/39 on the TT, with a 12-28
I think thats what I have now on my TT bike. I was running an 11-23 and quite frankly didnt have the leg strength to use the highest gear combination unless I got a nice hill to power down at 50mph.I geared down slightly and am pushing just as fast on average and I have a more flexible bike.
Spent the morning stripping the 105 off the TT bike and putting on the roadie. Need to go a buy a new calliper as a I needed a deep drop fro the rear.
Went out for a ride. It was a ride of two halfs. To begin with it felt great, like a new bike. Gearing seemed fine with the 53/39 and 11/28. Hills seemed ok. Then suddenly on hills in the two inner most cogs it start throwing the chain off the small chainring. Then I got lost, then it started raining and got windy, then I ended up on a horrible main road with lorries thundering past me, turned off to side road, up hill bang, chain snapped.
May have been coincidence or cold have been where I split the chain to take it off the TT bike. Also think it was being thrown off because it is a directional chain and I don't recall checking which way round it went on.
Never mind, it feels so much better with the new kit. Especially the brakes. I had no confidence on downhills before because my brakes were so s
t, today I was flying down them like Wiggo (not quite like that but you know, better than before).
Went out for a ride. It was a ride of two halfs. To begin with it felt great, like a new bike. Gearing seemed fine with the 53/39 and 11/28. Hills seemed ok. Then suddenly on hills in the two inner most cogs it start throwing the chain off the small chainring. Then I got lost, then it started raining and got windy, then I ended up on a horrible main road with lorries thundering past me, turned off to side road, up hill bang, chain snapped.
May have been coincidence or cold have been where I split the chain to take it off the TT bike. Also think it was being thrown off because it is a directional chain and I don't recall checking which way round it went on.
Never mind, it feels so much better with the new kit. Especially the brakes. I had no confidence on downhills before because my brakes were so s
t, today I was flying down them like Wiggo (not quite like that but you know, better than before).
I am not afraid to admin when I have made a mistake, but I have done a wrong'un with these gears. Since getting the power meter I have more data to look at (mmmmm data), that has shown too things, first my cadence is too low and I am mashing too high a gear, secondly that I am having to put far too much power down on the hills to shift my fat arse up it.
I have lost weight and will lose more, but at 6'5'' I am always going to be heavier than a lot of riders.
I went for the double rather than compact because I thought I needed the higher gearing for top end, I don't. On a Z2 ride I rarely now even use the top 2/3 gears even on a fast down hill.
I kind of don't want to change much at the mo as I don't know what the effect of losing weight will be. I have lost two stone, I reckon I could lose another 3 or 4 to get me to a decent athletic weight. The hope is that I wouldn't lose any power as it will be all fat.
Wonder if there is a shimanno 10sp chainring with 36T I could get to give me some improvement on the hills
I have lost weight and will lose more, but at 6'5'' I am always going to be heavier than a lot of riders.
I went for the double rather than compact because I thought I needed the higher gearing for top end, I don't. On a Z2 ride I rarely now even use the top 2/3 gears even on a fast down hill.
I kind of don't want to change much at the mo as I don't know what the effect of losing weight will be. I have lost two stone, I reckon I could lose another 3 or 4 to get me to a decent athletic weight. The hope is that I wouldn't lose any power as it will be all fat.
Wonder if there is a shimanno 10sp chainring with 36T I could get to give me some improvement on the hills
Like you ive been messing around with ratios..
I used to run a 53/39 with a 11/25, found on any hills great than 10% were a real struggle.
So 1st went to 53/39 with an 11/30, all i changed was the cassette for about £20, found +10% were easier but still not easy.
So then went 50/34 with an 11/30, and now find the 10% are ok provided they're under a couple of miles..
Initially i hated this final set up as "it felt all wrong all the time" and wondered how much difference the crank length made as the 53/39 were 172.5 whereas the 50/34 are only 170.
Since ive gone with the final set up ive got PBs on climbs, flats and down hills.
Ok so on the flat i'm spinning more but heart rate is down and on downhills ive only run out of pedal once but i was at 50mph so think i can live with that!
I'd still like to understand the effect on my power delivery from different crank lengths.
I used to run a 53/39 with a 11/25, found on any hills great than 10% were a real struggle.
So 1st went to 53/39 with an 11/30, all i changed was the cassette for about £20, found +10% were easier but still not easy.
So then went 50/34 with an 11/30, and now find the 10% are ok provided they're under a couple of miles..
Initially i hated this final set up as "it felt all wrong all the time" and wondered how much difference the crank length made as the 53/39 were 172.5 whereas the 50/34 are only 170.
Since ive gone with the final set up ive got PBs on climbs, flats and down hills.
Ok so on the flat i'm spinning more but heart rate is down and on downhills ive only run out of pedal once but i was at 50mph so think i can live with that!
I'd still like to understand the effect on my power delivery from different crank lengths.
I have admitted defeat and ordered a compact chainset. Should be able to get a few quid for the double on ebay.
Did a course reccy for my HIM and its lumpy rather than hilly but there is a draggy 4% which you have to do 3 times. I really felt it on the last lap and my power was spiking at over 200% of FTP meaning my VI was nearly 1.2.
Even if I lost another 3 stone I would still be 13.5 stone and don't think a double is ever going to suit me.
Did a course reccy for my HIM and its lumpy rather than hilly but there is a draggy 4% which you have to do 3 times. I really felt it on the last lap and my power was spiking at over 200% of FTP meaning my VI was nearly 1.2.
Even if I lost another 3 stone I would still be 13.5 stone and don't think a double is ever going to suit me.
Personally I think you're massively overthinking things. A bunch of points, in no specific order:
First up, if you're doing a half, it's definitely submaximal, forget top end. Yes, I occasionally use the far end of the cassette, but on a 25mile TT. If you're doing enough speed for that kind of thing on a half, you should be easing off and saving some energy, not pushing the top. Push when you're going slowly.
Gear ratio has very little to do with how much you spike the power, that's down to how hard you push on the pedals(!) Biggest adjustment a power meter brings for pacing is understanding just how much you do spike riding 'normally'. Ride constant(ish) effort, not constant pace. Accept you will slow down a *LOT* on the hills. My pacing for half and full is based on a power target and a power cap. The power target is for flat, it drifts up a bit when I'm slow (climbing), and down a bit when I'm fast (descending). The cap is a climbing max. That is BELOW FTP, and only exceeded very, very rarely and for < 30 sec or so (perhaps a short, steep ramp, or accelerating out of a junction). If my VI is over 1.05, I probably did something wrong.
That said, it does sound like a compact will suit you better.
Forget what cadence you 'should' ride. It's self selecting. Yes there are people who ride idiotic cadences in either direction, but within a sensible range (say approx 75-110 maybe - I pulled that out of thin air), IT DOESN'T MATTER. I'm kinda sick of hearing that we should all ride at 95-100 because lance did or because someone else told them that / some such nonsense. It you're bigger you'll tend to spin more slowly with more force, if you're a 45kg girl with tiny legs you're going spin faster. You have to, and its more effective.
Simply put, you need to find a balance. If the legs are dying and the lungs are fine, spin faster. If you're gasping and the legs feel fine, gear up and get some load on the legs. If it's about even, you're about right.
For whatever it's worth, at 5'10 and 80kg I turn around 85 on the flat, sub 80 climbing. I go a damn sight better now than when I was trying to turn 95 everywhere. Don't believe me - this is worth a read http://trisutto.com/the-great-cadence-debate/
If you're going for a big climbing course, probably best to leave the TT behind. If you're spending significant time out of the pursuit position, you'd be better on the roadbike. It handles better and is more comfortable (and possibly more aero) than riding the TT bike on the basebar. Consequently my TT has a standard 53/39, and the roadbike runs compact. That said 4% isn't what I'd call really hilly, ought to be OK on 39-28.. If you were suffering on the 3rd lap, you probably went too hard on the previous two. Resist and pace it back aggressively off the power meter.. it's pretty hard to underbike, very easy to overbike.
Hope that's actually some help.. which race?
First up, if you're doing a half, it's definitely submaximal, forget top end. Yes, I occasionally use the far end of the cassette, but on a 25mile TT. If you're doing enough speed for that kind of thing on a half, you should be easing off and saving some energy, not pushing the top. Push when you're going slowly.
Gear ratio has very little to do with how much you spike the power, that's down to how hard you push on the pedals(!) Biggest adjustment a power meter brings for pacing is understanding just how much you do spike riding 'normally'. Ride constant(ish) effort, not constant pace. Accept you will slow down a *LOT* on the hills. My pacing for half and full is based on a power target and a power cap. The power target is for flat, it drifts up a bit when I'm slow (climbing), and down a bit when I'm fast (descending). The cap is a climbing max. That is BELOW FTP, and only exceeded very, very rarely and for < 30 sec or so (perhaps a short, steep ramp, or accelerating out of a junction). If my VI is over 1.05, I probably did something wrong.
That said, it does sound like a compact will suit you better.
Forget what cadence you 'should' ride. It's self selecting. Yes there are people who ride idiotic cadences in either direction, but within a sensible range (say approx 75-110 maybe - I pulled that out of thin air), IT DOESN'T MATTER. I'm kinda sick of hearing that we should all ride at 95-100 because lance did or because someone else told them that / some such nonsense. It you're bigger you'll tend to spin more slowly with more force, if you're a 45kg girl with tiny legs you're going spin faster. You have to, and its more effective.
Simply put, you need to find a balance. If the legs are dying and the lungs are fine, spin faster. If you're gasping and the legs feel fine, gear up and get some load on the legs. If it's about even, you're about right.
For whatever it's worth, at 5'10 and 80kg I turn around 85 on the flat, sub 80 climbing. I go a damn sight better now than when I was trying to turn 95 everywhere. Don't believe me - this is worth a read http://trisutto.com/the-great-cadence-debate/
If you're going for a big climbing course, probably best to leave the TT behind. If you're spending significant time out of the pursuit position, you'd be better on the roadbike. It handles better and is more comfortable (and possibly more aero) than riding the TT bike on the basebar. Consequently my TT has a standard 53/39, and the roadbike runs compact. That said 4% isn't what I'd call really hilly, ought to be OK on 39-28.. If you were suffering on the 3rd lap, you probably went too hard on the previous two. Resist and pace it back aggressively off the power meter.. it's pretty hard to underbike, very easy to overbike.
Hope that's actually some help.. which race?
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