Is My Starter Motor Stuffed
Discussion
Morning Chaps and Chapesses
Just had a nearly embarrassing incident in the work car park
Reversing into a space and managed to stall while 3/4 in. Tried to restart but no joy - the starter would barely turn and sounded like I had a flat battery - but not likely as the car has had some regular use this last week and the lights are bright and all other electrics seem OK.
Just to be sure I went and picked up the booster pack from the car park attendant and tried that - the starter still wouldn't go and still sounded like I had a flat battery
I also think I saw a puff of smoke come up just in front of the windscreen (drivers side) so stopped immediately.
Car park attendant came and helped me shove the car back fully into the space.
I checked lights etc. again and they were bright and central locking works just fine so there is some juice in the battery.
It cranked fine when I left home this morning.
Any ideas or thoughts.
Just had a nearly embarrassing incident in the work car park
Reversing into a space and managed to stall while 3/4 in. Tried to restart but no joy - the starter would barely turn and sounded like I had a flat battery - but not likely as the car has had some regular use this last week and the lights are bright and all other electrics seem OK.
Just to be sure I went and picked up the booster pack from the car park attendant and tried that - the starter still wouldn't go and still sounded like I had a flat battery
I also think I saw a puff of smoke come up just in front of the windscreen (drivers side) so stopped immediately.
Car park attendant came and helped me shove the car back fully into the space.
I checked lights etc. again and they were bright and central locking works just fine so there is some juice in the battery.
It cranked fine when I left home this morning.
Any ideas or thoughts.
s p a c e m a n said:
I'd take a stab at it being power cable related rather than the actual starter given the bits of string used to wire these cars up.
Oh hark at him with his lah-de-dah bits of string. Some of have to make do with cotton and we're grateful for that !!It does have a hot start kit fitted but will of course try again later when it will have cooled down.
N7GTX - I don't think it's the sticking problem - have come across this before. It does try and spin but just sounds like it's about to give up the ghost.
Presumably I can put 12 volts direct to the starter - although I doubt I will be able to access it while parked.
Sounds like the usual poor earth syndrome.
It could be as simple as poor battery connections, start there.
I would then unbolt all the earths, clean up the connections and reboot.
Of course, check the power connections are right while you are at it.
I would be pretty confident that the above will sort your problem.
It will most likely start when cold as these problems seem to arise when hot but not really being a "hot start" problem.
It could be as simple as poor battery connections, start there.
I would then unbolt all the earths, clean up the connections and reboot.
Of course, check the power connections are right while you are at it.
I would be pretty confident that the above will sort your problem.
It will most likely start when cold as these problems seem to arise when hot but not really being a "hot start" problem.
Read this:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=110...
The starter cable on a Chimaera is very long and of inadequate gauge, consider there are four things that increase resistance in any electrical circuit.
1. The length of the cable
2. The gauge of the cable
3. Corrosion
4. Heat
The above rules are exactly the same for both the live feed side (battery to starter motor) and the earth path back to the battery.
A shorter thicker gauge cable will have a far lower resistance than a long thin gauge cable, you can't really shorten the cable because the battery sits in the passenger footwell and the starter motor is on the drivers side of the engine so the cable must pass over the bell housing, but you can lower it's resistance massively by upgrading it.
The gauge of cable used by TVR was really marginal from day one, add in 15-20 years of hot/cold cycles and the inevitable internal corrosion of the cable and it's resistance becomes huge!!!
Now consider your stall was when the car was hot, your old corroded cable will have been very hot too so it's resistance would be even higher, hence the slow starter motor function.
Electricity will also always find the path of least resistance, the puff of smoke you saw emanating from the base of your windscreen was almost certainly the starter cable earthing on the bell housing and vaporising a small section of it's insulation, this is very dangerous!
You really need to replace that old corroded feeble starter cable before your slow starter motor function becomes something much worse, IE an electrical fire. When you fit a new starter cable use a heavier gauge as per my linked post, run an additional earth using the same heavy gauge cable from the starter motor mounting bolt directly back to the battery earth terminal.
Make sure both battery terminals are tight and your battery is fit and healthy, you will have a TVR that's now both safe and cranks like never before!
Hope this helps?
Dave.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=110...
The starter cable on a Chimaera is very long and of inadequate gauge, consider there are four things that increase resistance in any electrical circuit.
1. The length of the cable
2. The gauge of the cable
3. Corrosion
4. Heat
The above rules are exactly the same for both the live feed side (battery to starter motor) and the earth path back to the battery.
A shorter thicker gauge cable will have a far lower resistance than a long thin gauge cable, you can't really shorten the cable because the battery sits in the passenger footwell and the starter motor is on the drivers side of the engine so the cable must pass over the bell housing, but you can lower it's resistance massively by upgrading it.
The gauge of cable used by TVR was really marginal from day one, add in 15-20 years of hot/cold cycles and the inevitable internal corrosion of the cable and it's resistance becomes huge!!!
Now consider your stall was when the car was hot, your old corroded cable will have been very hot too so it's resistance would be even higher, hence the slow starter motor function.
Electricity will also always find the path of least resistance, the puff of smoke you saw emanating from the base of your windscreen was almost certainly the starter cable earthing on the bell housing and vaporising a small section of it's insulation, this is very dangerous!
You really need to replace that old corroded feeble starter cable before your slow starter motor function becomes something much worse, IE an electrical fire. When you fit a new starter cable use a heavier gauge as per my linked post, run an additional earth using the same heavy gauge cable from the starter motor mounting bolt directly back to the battery earth terminal.
Make sure both battery terminals are tight and your battery is fit and healthy, you will have a TVR that's now both safe and cranks like never before!
Hope this helps?
Dave.
Update:
Going home time last night - inserted key and turned two clicks. Fuel pump primed fine. Turned key a further click and starter motor working as usual.
So given the above it looks like it is a heat/wiring issue.
I had been crawling through city centre traffic yesterday morning for the final 10mins of the journey so the engine bay temp. might have been a bit warm.
thanks all.
Going home time last night - inserted key and turned two clicks. Fuel pump primed fine. Turned key a further click and starter motor working as usual.
So given the above it looks like it is a heat/wiring issue.
I had been crawling through city centre traffic yesterday morning for the final 10mins of the journey so the engine bay temp. might have been a bit warm.
thanks all.
I had a beefed up cable fitted when Powers upgraded my Ecu and starts cold or hot seem to crank exactly the same, I've been using mine as a daily for over 6 months now and it's been spot on and I've sort of forgot about hot start issues,,, my nerves would become on end just getting fuel, will it, won't t it start etc, mines completely eradicated those issues, mine was also the immobiliser but I would notice a difference in cranking speed before when it was hot so it's defo made a big difference.
The immobiliser fault is very much a separate issue because while the feed goes to the starter motor the immobiliser circuit is just a secondary switch for the starter solenoid not the main high amp live feed to power the starter motor itself.
However, heat will effect both in the same way, IE more heat = more resistance.
A click from the solenoid or a slow cranking starter motor indicates an issue with the high amp starter motor circuit so will either be a weak battery or more likely a starter cable that is long past it's best.
If the starter motor does nothing and there's no clicking sound you may well have the immobiliser fault!
From your description alone I would confidently predict replacing your starter cable with something in a thicker gauge will solve your problem, adding an additional heavy gauge earth cable from the starter motor mounting bolt back to the battery earth terminal will help greatly too.
If you then wanted to address the infamous but separate immobiliser issue a simple bypass will sort it for no money whatsoever, a more complete solution would be to replace the security system with new but if you lack the funds for this the bypass will work equally well.
Resolving both the starter cable issue and the immobiliser issue in one go is without doubt the best way to massively improve the future reliability of your Chimaera, indeed if TVR had wired the immobiliser correctly in the first place and fitted a better quality starter cable these cars would never have earned the dubiouse reputation for being so unreliable.
It sounds like I'm over simplifying it right, just two little wiring issues resolved and the car will be massively more reliable, it can't be that easy can it?
Well trust me "Yes It Can!".
Sorting the immobiliser issue and fitting a more suitable starter cable should be the first things on any Chimaera owner's list of improvements, because these two cheap to address elements alone are by far the best thing you will do to your TVR.
It doesn't matter how powerful you've made your Chimaera, if it doesn't start.... a bicycle will be a faster method of transport
However, heat will effect both in the same way, IE more heat = more resistance.
A click from the solenoid or a slow cranking starter motor indicates an issue with the high amp starter motor circuit so will either be a weak battery or more likely a starter cable that is long past it's best.
If the starter motor does nothing and there's no clicking sound you may well have the immobiliser fault!
From your description alone I would confidently predict replacing your starter cable with something in a thicker gauge will solve your problem, adding an additional heavy gauge earth cable from the starter motor mounting bolt back to the battery earth terminal will help greatly too.
If you then wanted to address the infamous but separate immobiliser issue a simple bypass will sort it for no money whatsoever, a more complete solution would be to replace the security system with new but if you lack the funds for this the bypass will work equally well.
Resolving both the starter cable issue and the immobiliser issue in one go is without doubt the best way to massively improve the future reliability of your Chimaera, indeed if TVR had wired the immobiliser correctly in the first place and fitted a better quality starter cable these cars would never have earned the dubiouse reputation for being so unreliable.
It sounds like I'm over simplifying it right, just two little wiring issues resolved and the car will be massively more reliable, it can't be that easy can it?
Well trust me "Yes It Can!".
Sorting the immobiliser issue and fitting a more suitable starter cable should be the first things on any Chimaera owner's list of improvements, because these two cheap to address elements alone are by far the best thing you will do to your TVR.
It doesn't matter how powerful you've made your Chimaera, if it doesn't start.... a bicycle will be a faster method of transport
sheel said:
Diddy battery relocated to boot all main feeds now in fine gauge 50sq mm cable. Swings over like the plugs were out!!
Rich
50mm² cable is what I used back in 2012 (OD 13.3mm), the original cable used by TVR was 35 mm²(OD 11.8mm), it doesn't sound much until you hold both cables in your hand.Rich
My 50mm² cable is rated at over 100 amps more than the original feebly 35 mm² stuff, and that's if the original 35 mm² cable was new.
Which mine most definitely wasn't!
In fact my old skinny original TVR cable is proper crispy in places, it had sections with hard spots that were noticeably more rigid than others, in these sections it made that nasty crunchy sound when you flexed the cable. I cut away the insulation in places to inspect the cable, the insulation was very worn itself and the cable I found beneath was extremely corroded with many strands fractured in the hard spot areas.
When I had my Mk3 headlights fitted by Surface & Design they commented my car was the strongest cranking Chimaera they had ever come across, and they see a lot of TVRs, hell these are the guys that helped make them in the first place.
I have an Odyssey PC1500 battery that shoves out 850 cold cranking amps and 1200 hot cranking amps, indeed under normal starting conditions it delivers a whopping 1500 amps to the starter for the first 5 seconds... by which time the engine is very much running.
My Global Power starter motor is nothing special, it's only four years old but it's certainly not a fancy dancy expensive one (tried one of them and it was rubbish!), I think I paid £76 for it and it's absolutely spot on.
My combination is simply an excellent battery, upgraded starter cable, a heavy duty direct earth return and my Chimaera cranks like a jet, add in a bypass on the immobiliser starter solenoid circuit and starting reliability is as good as you'll get. I've since upgraded to a Canems engine management system that replaces the old 20,000 volt cylinder coil with MSD coil packs that shove out 40,000 volts which just serves to make starts easier still. Ditching the dreadful plug extenders, fitting NGK Laserline plugs (No2s) and a set of MSD Super Conductor HT leads with double skin heat protected ends completes the package.
TVR never fitted a dedicated starter relay which is a bit of a school boy error so this is a useful addition too, but more to take amperage load off the ignition switch contacts than anything else so it's more a long term reliability thing.... but definitely still worth having.
I then finished it all off with a Battery Brain device that not only allows me to disconnect the battery after the car has been locked so parasitic battery drains are a thing of the past, but also if left on will monitor the battery and disconnect it automatically if the battery volts fall bellow a lower limit. Like this you can be sure there will always be enough juice in the battery to start the car even it I'm stupid enough to leave my lights on.
I had some unreliable starting challenges when I first bought my Chimaera five years ago, this got really annoying really quickly... at which point I promised myself I would find the rout causes and address each one using the principles of "Total Overkill!"
Suffice to say "Total Overkill!" nailed it
All good stuff.
I've been considering moving the battery to the boot for a while - simply for better and easier access to the battery and then this will also give better and easier access to
the fuse board and rats nest of other stuff in the footwell.
Perhaps now is the time with some new cabling as well.
Is the preference to run the cable through the cabin by going through from the boot and along the tunnel or can it just (term used loosely) be routed under the car down a chassis rail ?
I've been considering moving the battery to the boot for a while - simply for better and easier access to the battery and then this will also give better and easier access to
the fuse board and rats nest of other stuff in the footwell.
Perhaps now is the time with some new cabling as well.
Is the preference to run the cable through the cabin by going through from the boot and along the tunnel or can it just (term used loosely) be routed under the car down a chassis rail ?
Put in a beefier cable and renewed the earths too (just a good time to do it)...I ran my main supplies from new oddesy battery in the boot down thro the ns rear arch and inside the ns sill then terminated the Earth on the original chassis point to the front of the tunnel and supply across to the starter.I also relocated the fuse box to behind the passenger seat,you will find the supply for this is a twinned puny cable protected by an 80amp fuse,I replaced this supply cable with iirc 16sqmm and also replaced the alternator output cable, so happy now it's all fit for purpose! Oh and replaced main engine earth and also dedicated earths for my canems ecu. Shouldn't have any worries now!!
Rich
Rich
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