Wheel building question

[neilr]

He all, before i type in a lengthy post, is there anyone here who is competant with wheel building who might be able to offer some advice?

Having some issues lacing a rear wheel, and its driving me crazy.

It's an H Plus Son SL42 rim onto a Shimano 5800 rear hub 32 spoke 3 cross pattern.


thanks in anticipation!

[upsidedownmark]

Google sheldon brow for the best guide I've seen. Few ppl here have built, might be worth actually asking the question..

[neilr]

very true!

After lacing up the wheel introducing a very small amount of tension and truing it, some of the spoke 2 or 3 on both drive and non drive side were still slightly loose.

Once trued dishing the wheel correctly has proved impossible. The rim needs to be pulled toward the drive side for it to be dished correctly. However, some nipples have had to be tighened so much on the drive side that threads on the spokes have gone all the way though the nipple and some nipples have actually broken. I know the tension is often greater in the drive side but this is clearly not right at all.

Loosening non drive side spokes more isn't possible as they will be totally loose with no tension at all.


It's as if the spokes are an incorrect length, BUT. I used 3 different calculators and all came out within less than a mm of eachother. 270mm driveside 272mm non driveside. The last wheel i laced with the same spoke pattern was a breeze! (and still going strong)

As per original post H Plus Son SL42 rim, 5800 rear hub dt swiss straight gauge spokes (32) and 3 cross pattern.

Thanks!

[JustinF]

Two might be too obvious questions, are the supplied spokes actually the length you ordered and are you lacing correctly, excess length suggests you might be a hole out.

[upsidedownmark]

neilr said:

very true!

After lacing up the wheel introducing a very small amount of tension and truing it, some of the spoke 2 or 3 on both drive and non drive side were still slightly loose.

That doesn't sound abnormal per se..

neilr said:

Once trued dishing the wheel correctly has proved impossible. The rim needs to be pulled toward the drive side for it to be dished correctly. However, some nipples have had to be tighened so much on the drive side that threads on the spokes have gone all the way though the nipple and some nipples have actually broken. I know the tension is often greater in the drive side but this is clearly not right at all.

Loosening non drive side spokes more isn't possible as they will be totally loose with no tension at all.

Drive side / non drive side tension ratio is effectively determined by physics. It *WILL* be looser on the NDS, but it's a relatively small amount (49%-51% for your wheel). I think the clue is in the drive side..

neilr said:

It's as if the spokes are an incorrect length, BUT. I used 3 different calculators and all came out within less than a mm of eachother. 270mm driveside 272mm non driveside. The last wheel i laced with the same spoke pattern was a breeze! (and still going strong)

As per original post H Plus Son SL42 rim, 5800 rear hub dt swiss straight gauge spokes (32) and 3 cross pattern.

Thanks!

IMO, it seems likely the drive side spokes are too long..

My calcs agree with yours, but whatever the numbers said, if they're bottoming out, something is wrong.

Daft possibilities - you have got the longer ones on the NDS right?
You're using 'normal' 12/14mm nipples, not something funky / overlong?

[neilr]

hi, thanks for taking the time to reply.

Yes the longer spokes are definitely on the NDS. One of the first things I did was double check that!

Its definitely very strange. Just the standard nipples nothing fancy.

I think i'll have to re-measure everything, even though my own measurements matched those spoke length calculators that have measurements already plugged in for some hubs and rims.

Back to the drawing board....

[Nikolai]

Have you remembered to correctly lace them over over over under or whatever method you're using? I forgot once like an idiot, went and bought new spokes, then realised...

[Fastpedeller]

I hope the following makes sense....... I guess you started by putting a spoke in every other hole on the hub flange on one side, and put the other end of one next to the valve, then carried on putting the next spoke on every 4th hole of the rim (having put nipples on loosely on each), then put the rest of the spokes in with elbow the other side of the flange and used the rim hole 2 away, and basically did the same (but in the 'other direction') crossing as necessary. For the next part, moving on to the other side of the wheel, did you look across the hub and put the first spoke through the hole to the right of the 'opposite spoke' and put the rim end of the spoke in through the rim hole one spoke around to the right also? (ie NOT the left) It's an easy mistake for learners to make, and results in the sort of issue you have. Forgive me if I'm stating the obvious, and also (as I'm old school having done most of my wheel building 20-30 years ago) if I've mentioned spoke elbows, but yours may be different - I'm not up to speed with new wheel products! Good luck. Edited to correct typo, and add that after looking up the product I see they are 'regular' hubs/rims and not spokes that are threaded both ends of any other 'oddities'

Edited by Fastpedeller on Wednesday 13th April 10:43

[neilr]

In response to the last 2 comments....

1. yes the cross pattern was correct, i did check that!

2. Yes, that was what I consciously tried to do. However, I've removed the spokes from the wheel now so I can't check it to see if I made a mistake there.

Thanks for all the replies. Although I've laced some wheels (successfully) I am most definitely a beginner when it come to this. The satisfaction of riding wheels you have put together yourself (preferably put together well!) is why I'm doing it, not to try and save money or anything else.

I'll order some more spokes and try again....

I'l try to remember to update the thread when I have. Thanks for your replies all!

[upsidedownmark]

Best description going here http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html#lacing

Unless you've identified a problem, I wouldn't bother ordering new spokes. Sit down and be very (very) methodical. There is no black art, it's just geometry.. Odds are it's a 'silly' mistake that you can't see for being too close to the problem Eliminate the impossible, whatever remains and all that..

Best of luck.