MF digital backs (anoraks only;-)

[Bacardi]

Rather than hijack the Canon thread any more, thought I'd start a new one.

bacchus180 said:

a lot of useful information on the 'switching to Canon' thread

Thanks for that, very interesting. The thing that hasn't appealed has been the dealers for Jenoptik. I'm not sure if this will be improved. Sinar, for years, used to be sold by Studio workshop where you could go and talk to someone and build up a long term relationship, as I have done with the dealers who sell Phase One. Lastra Imaging (UK) Ltd, don't fill me with confidence. I know Sinar were having problems with their own back and, by all accounts, Captureshop was buggy. I did have a look at Sinar's website and yep, it's on the front page, re-badged. Teamwork sell Sinar, so maybe they will be taking it on. They have been around for years with a good reputation and I would be happier dealing with someone like them.

I did download the, scant, pdf for the 22. Sounds good and I might find live video useful. I am impressed with the shoot rate, that's one thing I would find frustrating, going to higher res with slower shooting. Anything slower than 1.5 secs would be painful, with people. However, if I needed higher shooting rates I would go with the Canon anyway. The other beauty of staying with Phase One is the software. I know it well and it works with Canon files so I can keep the same workflow. I know nothing about the Eyelike software save a couple of grabs of their 'lightbox' thumbnail organiser.

I like the fact that you can change cameras with adapter plates, wide angles become (almost) usable with the bigger sized chip and, of course, being untethered is great on location, although I still prefer to shoot tethered where possible, even with the Canon (which is buggy with C1). It does sound very good on paper, sounds like you're going to be the Guinea pig.

Good luck, thanks again, keep me posted.

[ehasler]

My bank manager has requested that this thread be closed

[bacchus180]

bacardi said:

sounds like you're going to be the Guinea pig.

yes I think this is true...

the new software I'm told is as good if not better than capture one... however I think the failing with jenoptik has always been the marketing of there products. hence no real cover and penetration into the market place. its the same old story... some nerds have come up with a great product but nobody knows about it. remember jenoptik is the old carl ziess.. its like great brains but no market skills or presense.
phase have the US markets sown up hence all the publicity that goes with it.. I do believe that the phase backs are an inferior product. the big thing for me was compression... their (phase) pitch with the P25 is lossless compression.... well that to me is just an oxymoron.

I think the change in dealerships will only enhance this product... I spoke with teamwork and yes they are tkaing it on.. I was checking the prices to make sure it wasn't going to be reduced.. although like most things I'm sure that inevitable.

I agree about capture rates and shooting tethered. I use canon when I need speed and only need to print up to A3.. (which even that I had initial problems with)

somehow I think when this back finally arrives it will become my weapon of choice, I think the sheer cost and the fact its untethered will make me use it more and more.. I mean think before the DSLR's became so good... what was your weapon of choice through thick and thin.. mine was definatly the V series.. and I can see with the convinience of this new back and the speed of the H1 that this will become the same!

I'll keep you informed about my thoughts when it finally arrives .. you are always welcome to come down and try it out..

>> Edited by bacchus180 on Sunday 27th February 08:14

[ehasler]

How does the output from a MF digital back compare to MF film (ignoring cost/work flow benefits)?

Most of the film vs digital debate seems to be aimed at 35mm, so I'm interested to know how it compares in the larger formats.

Also, when would you say that the quality that MF offers over 35mm becomes necessary? Is the difference noticable in sizes up to A3, or only once you go larger than this?

[Bacardi]

ehasler said:

My bank manager has requested that this thread be closed

See Ed, I knew you wore an anorak , and it's not the bank manager you needd to worry about, it's mortgage broker!

bacchus180 said:

the new software I'm told is as good if not better than capture one... however I think the failing with jenoptik has always been the marketing of there products. hence no real cover and penetration into the market place. its the same old story... some nerds have come up with a great product but nobody knows about it. remember jenoptik is the old carl ziess.. its like great brains but no market skills or presense.

I think you're right. The tie up with Sinar should be good for them and customers. The worry when buying these very expensive items is that your warranty and back up will be there in a years time. Having said that my Lightphase has been utterly reliable over 5 years (he says, touching wood and reaching for rabbits foot), and I've no reason to think the Eylelike to be any different. No moving parts, although it is more complicated with screen and buttons etc. Possibly more things to go wrong.

bacchus180 said:

phase have the US markets sown up hence all the publicity that goes with it.. I do believe that the phase backs are an inferior product. the big thing for me was compression... their (phase) pitch with the P25 is lossless compression.... well that to me is just an oxymoron.

You can have lossless compression, just like TIFs with LZW. With Phase One you can choose between smaller files which are lossy and large which are not. It does save space. Uncompressed RAW is a constant 12.5 mb file, the large compressed is variable between, roughly, 6.5-7.5mb. I can't see any difference at 400%.

bacchus180 said:

somehow I think when this back finally arrives it will become my weapon of choice, I think the sheer cost and the fact its untethered will make me use it more and more.. I mean think before the DSLR's became so good... what was your weapon of choice through thick and thin.. mine was definatly the V series.. and I can see with the convinience of this new back and the speed of the H1 that this will become the same!

My weapon of choice still is the V series. Not sure about the H1, haven't had a really good play with one. The lens range is growing and I'm sure it will handle well. Maybe that's the option, ditch the V and Canon and just go for a kit of H1. . However, I do a lot of tabletop stuff and really like using a WLF, don't think they do one for the H1. One reason I like the back on the 'blad rather than using the 1ds is just rotating the back, rather than the camera, for landscape/portrait. Do you know if you can rotate the emotion?

bacchus180 said:

I'll keep you informed about my thoughts when it finally arrives .. you are always welcome to come down and try it out.

That's very kind of you, lunch is on me. It's always good to chew the cud with a fellow snapper, swapping notes and getting some user feedback rather than the sales patter.

ehasler said:

How does the output from a MF digital back compare to MF film (ignoring cost/work flow benefits)? Most of the film vs digital debate seems to be aimed at 35mm, so I'm interested to know how it compares in the larger formats.

Depends on the back. I would say that the backs we are talking about here, P25 and Emotion 22, would wipe the floor with MF film in every department. Colour accuracy, detail, exposure latitude etc. To put some perspective on this, I used to shoot regularly on MF and 5x4, 98% transparency. 99% of my work is destined for 4 colour repro,, mainly magazines, so DPS is about as large as most of my stuff goes. However, the shot may get cropped, but I know my Lightphase back is good enough for A2. It's only 6mp. I haven't shot 'any' film for about 4 years. Also worth mentioning that I use my 'blad/Lightphase 90% of the time rather than my 11mp 1ds (I may champion Canon over Nikon on other threads but this tells you what I really think of the Canon), however, it would be crap for sport . All about picking the right tool for the job. I guess it would be a good question to ask why I want to upgrade/trade in the back then? Well a little more res would be useful. I have, on occasion, needed more but rather than get out the 5x4 have bodged it, stitching images together etc. The back can also give me, occasional, moiré problems, higher res would help relieve this. Live video and tetherless shooting also appeal.

There was a thread on Galbraith's comparing the new 1ds mkII with 5x4. 5x4 was easily better but, IIRC, the consensus was the it was a good match up 6x9 roll film. Not bad. That's for 16.7mp, 12 bit capture. I would hazard a guess that 22mp, 16 bit capture would start to get close to 5x4.

ehasler said:

Also, when would you say that the quality that MF offers over 35mm becomes necessary? Is the difference noticable in sizes up to A3, or only once you go larger than this?

I assume you mean digital MF & 35mm. Up to A3, when printed, you most probably would have trouble telling the difference. The reason for choosing MF digital over 35mm has to do with other things. As well as the best quality image, lower noise, larger exposure latitude; it may also be to do with workflow, handling, larger viewfinders, reliable tethered shooting if desired and other personal preferences. It's also true that you you would pick 35mm when you want its benefits. larger choice of optics, faster shooting, fast auto focus etc. Horses for courses.

Ed, I suspect that you will be very happy with your 1dsmkII when it arrives. Have you still got that Sagaris on order? Perhaps I should save my money in order to make you an offer for your S?

Cheers
Paul

>> Edited by Bacardi on Sunday 27th February 21:59

[ehasler]

Bacardi said:

Ed, I suspect that you will be very happy with your 1dsmkII when it arrives. Have you still got that Sagaris on order? Perhaps I should save my money in order to make you an offer for your S?

Seriously, I'm not in the market for a M/F camera, but I'm just interested in the differences between 35mm and M/F.

I saw a demo of the Hasselblad H1D today at the Focus show, and it is a very impressive bit of kit. Not much good for shooting race cars with a 600mm lens though, but like you say - it's about picking the right tools for the job. I think I'm going to be very happy with my 1Ds II for a long time yet