Training zones and benefits

[E65Ross]

Based on this

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/power-t...

Clearly there is no benefit from training in zone 2 when compared to zone 3.....zone 3 offers all the benefits of Z2, and more. There seems to be a general concensus that sticking in Z2 is better for endurance rides.... Why is this? Wouldn't a 2-3 hour ride in Z3 be better than a 3-4 hour ride in Z2?

Appreciate that sticking in Z3 is quite hard especially on days following sessions where you may have done Z5-7....so maybe that's why?

What are your thoughts?

Cheers

[944fan]

As I understand it and I am no expert but Zone 2 is about building aerobic endurance without stressing to body too much. You might get away with doing long rides Zone 3 but I guess it depends on your fitness and other training load. Before buying a power meter I was using HR zones, my HR zone 2 effort is now more like Z3 power. If I go out and do Z2 power my average HR zone would be 1.6 ish

So pre power meter I probably was doing long efforts in power Z3 and I did't suffer for it. Certainly made good progress to. On the other hand with my current training plan I am know in a much more intense phase and if I did 3+ hours in Z3 I would suffer for it the next day.

Its all very interesting stuff and I wish I understood more about it. Especially as opinions on the subject different a lot between coaches.

[dangerousB]

As I remember, the best way to initiate mitochondrial adaptation in slow-twitch muscle fibres is to train at 70% of VO2max (although adaptation begins from as low as 50%) and no higher - any higher training intensity starts recruiting fast twitch fibres.

TP refer to Z3 as being 84-94% of HRmax which is too fast for slow twitch recruitment, so I'm guessing that's why you'd want to stick to Z2 for endurance rides.

I may be wrong, but that's my guess!

[E65Ross]

dangerousB said:

As I remember, the best way to initiate mitochondrial adaptation in slow-twitch muscle fibres is to train at 70% of VO2max (although adaptation begins from as low as 50%) and no higher - any higher training intensity starts recruiting fast twitch fibres.

TP refer to Z3 as being 84-94% of HRmax which is too fast for slow twitch recruitment, so I'm guessing that's why you'd want to stick to Z2 for endurance rides.

I may be wrong, but that's my guess!

TR use 85-94% of FTP for Z3, not HRmax....

clearly you'll clock up TSS much faster riding at around 90% FTP than at 70% FTP....but I wonder which has more physiological benefit.... 180TSS at 90% FTP vs 180TSS at 70% FTP for building what endurance rides are supposed to build....

food for thought!

[dangerousB]

E65Ross said:

TR use 85-94% of FTP for Z3, not HRmax....

Ah, read your link too quickly! It's 85-94% of threshold HR not HRmax, my apologies!

The lower end of that would just about fall into 70% VO2max, but any quicker and you're into fast twitch recruitment. That's as I understand it.

Not sure if it translates into cycling, but for me the 180TSS at 70% FTP has always worked better for me with running - I've definitely found that the gains take longer to lose if I have a layoff/injury (or rather I get back to where I was quicker when training again).

Bottom line is though, that's why we periodise our training - different adaptations occur at different zones. You're a runner as well aren't you? I think it was Hadd that said "if you're not hitting your goals, your doing one of two things wrong - not enough mileage or training too fast" - IME, I totally agree with that.

[Raven Flyer]

I attended a fascinating sports science lecture about this topic, two years ago.

Zone 2 rides are done at a level below which your body switches on Glycogen supplies. Without this, your body has to raid fat reserves around the muscle cells and the cells get trained to work without easy access to fuel (blood sugars). If you get them used to this, when you train in zones that trigger Glycogen use, you will be much stronger and have better endurance than you would otherwise be.

Staying in zone 2 is difficult at first, especially if you haven't got a very flay route. If you haven't got a flat route, you may need to walk up some hills as it is vital to stay below the top of zone 2 for the whole ride. The moment you bust into zone 3, the fuel starving effect is over and your body will turn on your Glycogen supply for the rest of the ride.

The more rides you do in zone 2, the faster you will get for the same heart rate. If you do weekly club rides, you should start to see your average come down nicely on comparable club rides... meaning you have more in reserve.

The sports science guys consider your zone 2 session to be the most important one of the week.

[Gruffy]

I'm a niche case, of course, but I do lots of training in Z2 because I'll be racing in predominantly Z2. Even mid-distance riders will spend quite a bit of time in Z2 so those adaptations are worth pursuing, but I think the variability helps and you can't smash everywhere at Tempo and Threshold for the same benefit.

[TSCfree]

Don't think loads of miles at Z2 will have you breaking any records. They need to be done in conjunction with some hard graft. Have a look at Polarized Training methods which are well documented - Stoggl & Sperlich 2014.

Edited by TSCfree on Monday 23 May 10:18

[E65Ross]

That's an interesting read that, and something which strongly correlates to the training I did when I was running competitively. We did 2, rarely 3 HARD sessions per week, but the rest was pretty basic steady mileage.

At the moment I'm doing the following (roughly)...

Monday - tempo ride around 25-30 miles around 100-110tss Z3 (IF 0.8-0.85)
Tuesday rest
Wednesday hard session around 180tss IF of around 0.9-0.95
Thursday steady ride 60tss or so IF around 0.7
Friday rest
Saturday similar to Wednesday
Sunday long ride around 160-200tss IF 0.7-0.75

So I'm clocking around 700tss/week at the moment which is a fair amount.

Maybe I should cut that tempo ride down a few notches.... It is often quite difficult doing that after the hard session Saturday and the long ride Sunday!

[TSCfree]

There's nothing wrong per se with tempo riding - but it's neither extending your ability to clear lactate or extending your ability to go further. What it is doing is fatiguing you preventing proper hurt on your harder intervals. I don't train with power so the terms TSS are a little lost on me and I'm only an average 3rd Cat so maybe I'm doing it all wrong!!

I'm in between thoughts on training, such as JFR (Just Fking Ride) and measuring your performance within an inch of it's life. Whatever you decide, just enjoy!

[E65Ross]

definitely feel the most important thing is enjoyment. I'm actually doing an awful lot of riding on the turbo trainer at the moment....because even when the weather isn't bad, I really ENJOY some of the hard interval sessions, especially Sufferfest....I often "double up" to get to my circa 180TSS. I do most of my gentle or long rides outdoors, but when the weather was bad over the winter I did do some 3, or even 4 hours on the TT (watching various programmes etc to pass the time!) and I found workouts which purely stayed in Z2 were quite dull, it's nice to mix it up with some harder stuff occasionally. I don't think I've ever done a ride outdoors where I don't venture above Z2, even on gentle rides....purely because of hills. In reality, as long as I keep MOST of the ride in Z2 you should still reap the benefits.

Despite a hard weekend the legs didn't feel too bad today so did a bit of a tempo ride home, I spent 4% Z1, 27% in Z2, 24% Z3, 25% Z4, 13% Z5, 6% Z6 and 1% Z7.

It's something I've not really though of for my endurance rides.....I tend to just ride how I feel, looking back at my last 3 endurance rides I have Z2 percentages of 53, 59, 46 (very hilly route).