Poor track day driving standards
Discussion
I know that it's almost been done to death but i never thought that I'd see the day when inconsiderately driven road cars make life hard for a 997 cup at a track day. With over 500 bhp and a bucket full of driving aids being pretty much the norm these days you can no longer simply drive past a driver who refuses to let you through. On the lap, the Cup car would be light and day quicker.
It is incumbent on all drivers that share track space together to be equally considerate, whether he or she is driving a mini or a LMP3 car. There is no pecking order, just people trying to circulate at their own speed in their own time but if I have trouble passing cars in a 997 cup, it is a very sad day for drivers in slower cars. I appreciate watching an X6M or 991 RS barrelling sideways into Beckets once, but being stuck behind it for 2 laps being blocked continually I do not.
It is incumbent on all drivers that share track space together to be equally considerate, whether he or she is driving a mini or a LMP3 car. There is no pecking order, just people trying to circulate at their own speed in their own time but if I have trouble passing cars in a 997 cup, it is a very sad day for drivers in slower cars. I appreciate watching an X6M or 991 RS barrelling sideways into Beckets once, but being stuck behind it for 2 laps being blocked continually I do not.
Edited by Steve Rance on Friday 10th June 20:14
Bit like racing though isn't it - faster laps in clear air are one thing, having the car that's able to pass another is something else.
If that driver was blocking you on purpose that's out of order, but I guess it's something that happens on track days from time to time and you just put it down as "one of those days"...
If that driver was blocking you on purpose that's out of order, but I guess it's something that happens on track days from time to time and you just put it down as "one of those days"...
Agreed with Steve, standards were a bit iffy yesterday. I've never seen such long tailbacks of cars as there's an unhelpful car or two in front then everyone just piles up afterwards. Not just the powerful road cars but the corporate Radicals that were really slow and some packs of Caterhams not looking in their mirrors.
Think i got out of your way pronto whenever i saw the cup car in my mirrors though (silver gt4)
Think i got out of your way pronto whenever i saw the cup car in my mirrors though (silver gt4)
It's a track day not a race day nor a test day.
So it is by consent.
(However that does not stop you reporting people that are inconsiderate and not signalling to allow overtake/easing off the throttle when they are holding people up for two f
king laps - this works for me especially with pro organisers. I'm becoming a grumpy old git, but at least it gets people looking in mirrors when they are driving at 50 on a bloody race track )
My pet hate is when I'm waiting for the said person to indicate for an overtake by consent, and a slicked out race car overtakes us both on the fking corner - really?
(Sorry Friday nite rant - OP I feel your pain)
So it is by consent.
(However that does not stop you reporting people that are inconsiderate and not signalling to allow overtake/easing off the throttle when they are holding people up for two f
king laps - this works for me especially with pro organisers. I'm becoming a grumpy old git, but at least it gets people looking in mirrors when they are driving at 50 on a bloody race track )My pet hate is when I'm waiting for the said person to indicate for an overtake by consent, and a slicked out race car overtakes us both on the f
king corner - really?(Sorry Friday nite rant - OP I feel your pain)
I guess there will be a lot of drivers at track days that don't appreciate the pace of a cup car. Here's another example for you Steve:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpihY_HluRg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpihY_HluRg
Fl0pp3r said:
What were the marshalls doing Steve?! I thought that's what they're there for....
To be fair marshalls can be a bit inconsistent depending on day/track - where was this out of interest?
Personally i always let the quicker stuff through straight away as I'm not keen on swapping paint!
Why wouldn't the driver in front want to let the faster car past and then see if he or she could learn something by following ??To be fair marshalls can be a bit inconsistent depending on day/track - where was this out of interest?
Personally i always let the quicker stuff through straight away as I'm not keen on swapping paint!
I'm with Steve - it seems so simple to me. If a car is behind you on a track day, it is because it is quicker over a lap. So you get out of its way immediately.
It's no fun personally to hold someone up.
It can be educational and great fun trying to keep up with them afterwards!
Think Steve Kevlin makes this pretty clear at PCGB days.
It's no fun personally to hold someone up.
It can be educational and great fun trying to keep up with them afterwards!
Think Steve Kevlin makes this pretty clear at PCGB days.
It's a tricky balance really. Having driven some slower cars on track days it can get really tedious to spend a 20 minute session never stringing a lap together because someone is itching to come by. But being on the other end of things sucks too. Or in my old Westfield at the 'right' circuit I could manage both in a lap!
Thanks for the replies chaps. To be clear, the cars that I am referring to were deliberately blocking. My point is that these days even some pretty much road standard Tin tops have enough grunt to drive away from cars as quick as a 997 cup in a straight line. If drivers of these cars have a mind to, they can pretty much hold everyone up when using the 'only overtake on the left' rule.
The majority of drivers are still considerate but a few - maybe ten or so - were a real nusance. They knew that horsepower played into their hands and simply refused to let anything past. It's possible that the driver of a white 991 RS genuinely thought that he was keepiing a 997 cup honest. He wasn't. the reality is that a 991RS - even if it were driven by Mr Rhol will not see what way a well driven 997 cup went even if it's carrying a passenger. Please, next time let me pass and we can both get on with our day without me considering making a dummy pass at a track day which is crazy.
The majority of drivers are still considerate but a few - maybe ten or so - were a real nusance. They knew that horsepower played into their hands and simply refused to let anything past. It's possible that the driver of a white 991 RS genuinely thought that he was keepiing a 997 cup honest. He wasn't. the reality is that a 991RS - even if it were driven by Mr Rhol will not see what way a well driven 997 cup went even if it's carrying a passenger. Please, next time let me pass and we can both get on with our day without me considering making a dummy pass at a track day which is crazy.
Edited by Steve Rance on Saturday 11th June 08:05
boxsey said:
I guess there will be a lot of drivers at track days that don't appreciate the pace of a cup car. Here's another example for you Steve:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpihY_HluRg
Yep. The GT2 finally gets out of the way and the cup car is 4 seconds quicker on the next lap which was also compromised by the GT2 - so let's say 6 seconds. The driver of the GT2 will try to argue that he pulled to the right immediately before the braking zone but he knew damn well that he'd left it late enough for you not to be able to pass him. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpihY_HluRg
I'm sure the chap is a nice guy out of the car but his performance in it is poor and inconsiderate.
Im with you on this one.
Those bloody caterhams were a nuisance! Swinging into the apex at 40 mph and flatly refusing to indicate or move over. And yes, I only saw the X6M on one session I was on track, but he refused to get out of the way for two laps, at which point I passed him as you were passing in the cup car and predictably, left him for dead on the corners. No offence to the chap who brought a tank to a trackday (I've taken our tuned defender to one for a laugh too) but, he really should have just moved out of the way!!!!
Those bloody caterhams were a nuisance! Swinging into the apex at 40 mph and flatly refusing to indicate or move over. And yes, I only saw the X6M on one session I was on track, but he refused to get out of the way for two laps, at which point I passed him as you were passing in the cup car and predictably, left him for dead on the corners. No offence to the chap who brought a tank to a trackday (I've taken our tuned defender to one for a laugh too) but, he really should have just moved out of the way!!!!
Its what we might call boost monkey syndrome...
Its a track day though, lesuire time for people, not race licence holders and one could back off and make a gap. I get that it can be frustrating but if someone is being a complete, unsafe, tit then talk to the TDO. Soome TDO's manage the race car / road car mix better than others. Its takes a good briefing to set the tone. Also though when people sign up for a TD then they may not be expecting slick shod race cars to be out there with them so ts down to the TDO to explain the reality of how that needs to work.
At the RS day briefing ( ref vid above) you could hardly hear the fella and at no point did they discuss speed differential and appropriate behaviour that i can recall. The onus has to be on the faster car though, as frustrating as that may be.
Its a track day though, lesuire time for people, not race licence holders and one could back off and make a gap. I get that it can be frustrating but if someone is being a complete, unsafe, tit then talk to the TDO. Soome TDO's manage the race car / road car mix better than others. Its takes a good briefing to set the tone. Also though when people sign up for a TD then they may not be expecting slick shod race cars to be out there with them so ts down to the TDO to explain the reality of how that needs to work.
At the RS day briefing ( ref vid above) you could hardly hear the fella and at no point did they discuss speed differential and appropriate behaviour that i can recall. The onus has to be on the faster car though, as frustrating as that may be.
I agree and am very mindful of speed differentials in braking and cornering zones. To be honest, the Caterhams and radicals driven by novices don't bother me at all. I understand that many of these drivers will be experiencing their first track day and the duty falls to the more experienced drivers on the day to accommodate that. It's relatively easy to read when they are being driven by a novice and just as case of giving room before entry, driving past on exit and expecting the un expected in the mean time. It's the big bhp cars driven poorly by Charlie big potatoes ''thalt shall not pass' that are and will pose more of a problem as time passes. When cars had no electronic driving aids it was not a problem but now almost anyone can jump in something like an M5 and steer it relatively quickly without having a real clue what they are doing.
It is my pet hate at track days - boosted high power (heavy) cars (a la GTR) and caterhams.
Yes, not all of them, most are very very quick...but it just takes one driver with non-working mirrors....and I always seem to find that one driver
Something like a 996 GT3 does not have the speed differential in a straight line to easily pass a GTR (actually it won't in a million sundays) or any other home grown super turbo. But that one guy who wants to floor it on the straights and then be all over the place in the corner...sometime I drop back a whole 5- 10 seconds and then cruise up in 2-3 corners hoping they notice a much fast car....but no.
Last trip to silly it was a TDO with a fleet of rental caterhams and corporate radical joy rides....couldn't get a decent lap all day without a caterham parked on the apex. And for some reason that one caterham driver (dude must be swapping cars cause I always met the same personality!) had an ego problem in moving over...sometimes because there is an instructor telling them to ignore the mirror and sometimes because they believe they are quicker through the complexes.
Must admit I was gutted when I couldn't make Thursday because I expected higher driver standards there...a bit surprised and concerned to hear otherwise.
Yes, not all of them, most are very very quick...but it just takes one driver with non-working mirrors....and I always seem to find that one driver
Something like a 996 GT3 does not have the speed differential in a straight line to easily pass a GTR (actually it won't in a million sundays) or any other home grown super turbo. But that one guy who wants to floor it on the straights and then be all over the place in the corner...sometime I drop back a whole 5- 10 seconds and then cruise up in 2-3 corners hoping they notice a much fast car....but no.
Last trip to silly it was a TDO with a fleet of rental caterhams and corporate radical joy rides....couldn't get a decent lap all day without a caterham parked on the apex. And for some reason that one caterham driver (dude must be swapping cars cause I always met the same personality!) had an ego problem in moving over...sometimes because there is an instructor telling them to ignore the mirror and sometimes because they believe they are quicker through the complexes.
Must admit I was gutted when I couldn't make Thursday because I expected higher driver standards there...a bit surprised and concerned to hear otherwise.
Edited by LaSource on Saturday 11th June 12:33
Its typically a frustrating experience out on track days in a Cup.
In relative terms to whats generally around; you have fairly limited straight line acceleration and massive braking and cornering capacity. Its a terrible combination in that environment.
As a result you are left unable to get by in a drag race and then have to circulate at 50% capability until the next straight.
Its tempting to just bomb past under braking, but on the average track day thats going to end up with a coming together or the above post heading showing up on Pistonheads talking about you.
While mutual consideration is always optimal, its worth offering a counter. Get a few cars on a track day that through grip or driver skill can pedal (a reasonable norm) and everyone else suddenly feels like a moving chicane. All lap, every lap. Anything that is not a straightaway is spent with at least one of the fast cars filling their mirrors, straights are spent at half throttle letting the faster cars through. Thats no fun either and arguably worse from an enjoyment perspective.
I avoid track days like the plague for these reasons. I am out of place due to my car (Cup) and often out of place due to what I am doing (logging something or other).
I haven't yet found a way to run on a track day where I wasn't either frustrated or ruining it for others. Sometimes I can even achieve both at once lol.
I accept that the responsibility is ultimately mine and that if I attend I will get limited running as a result of waiting for lulls in on track numbers to go out.
The solution is to join a track where you can get out whenever you like and things are quiet (They dont seem to do that here in the UK sadly. Seems a missed opportunity since I suspect lots of tracks have significant dead time) or book private days and get a few folks together to share the cost.
In relative terms to whats generally around; you have fairly limited straight line acceleration and massive braking and cornering capacity. Its a terrible combination in that environment.
As a result you are left unable to get by in a drag race and then have to circulate at 50% capability until the next straight.
Its tempting to just bomb past under braking, but on the average track day thats going to end up with a coming together or the above post heading showing up on Pistonheads talking about you.
While mutual consideration is always optimal, its worth offering a counter. Get a few cars on a track day that through grip or driver skill can pedal (a reasonable norm) and everyone else suddenly feels like a moving chicane. All lap, every lap. Anything that is not a straightaway is spent with at least one of the fast cars filling their mirrors, straights are spent at half throttle letting the faster cars through. Thats no fun either and arguably worse from an enjoyment perspective.
I avoid track days like the plague for these reasons. I am out of place due to my car (Cup) and often out of place due to what I am doing (logging something or other).
I haven't yet found a way to run on a track day where I wasn't either frustrated or ruining it for others. Sometimes I can even achieve both at once lol.
I accept that the responsibility is ultimately mine and that if I attend I will get limited running as a result of waiting for lulls in on track numbers to go out.
The solution is to join a track where you can get out whenever you like and things are quiet (They dont seem to do that here in the UK sadly. Seems a missed opportunity since I suspect lots of tracks have significant dead time) or book private days and get a few folks together to share the cost.
Really interesting thread this .
I really want to learn to drive properly and get into the track day scene but I'm put off for two reasons :
1. Idiots who can cause accidents / offs - I guess I want to avoid expensive damage to my car.
2. My low level of relative knoledge that means I could accidentally be the one holding others up without even knowing it . Don't get me wrong I'm not a complete dunce in this respect , but sometimes a little knoldge can be a dangerous thing .
Basically I really don't want to be "that guy" that everyone's describing.
I wonder if there are days that are , for example , more costly , but better regulated , with purposely controlled lower numbers , car types ?
Also if so is there's anyone that can recommend decent instruction at one of these days , so I can learn as I participate ?
I'm in the East Midlands .
Cheers , happy tracking
I really want to learn to drive properly and get into the track day scene but I'm put off for two reasons :
1. Idiots who can cause accidents / offs - I guess I want to avoid expensive damage to my car.
2. My low level of relative knoledge that means I could accidentally be the one holding others up without even knowing it . Don't get me wrong I'm not a complete dunce in this respect , but sometimes a little knoldge can be a dangerous thing .
Basically I really don't want to be "that guy" that everyone's describing.
I wonder if there are days that are , for example , more costly , but better regulated , with purposely controlled lower numbers , car types ?
Also if so is there's anyone that can recommend decent instruction at one of these days , so I can learn as I participate ?
I'm in the East Midlands .
Cheers , happy tracking
Usually you learn to find your own standard - ie which TDO tends to have the type of cars and drivers most similar to you....though lately its getting a little blurry. Plus more often than not you book a date that is convenient to you even if a new TDO.
...maybe the solution will be for TDOs to theme their days - e.g. Lotus, Caterham, Radicals for one, Porsches and other higher power track cars for another, Souped up turbos for another, etc
(Edit: I'm assuming driving ability will norm out. Plus people with similar marque cars tend to have some kind of respectful fraternity so hopefully more respectful behaviours)
...maybe the solution will be for TDOs to theme their days - e.g. Lotus, Caterham, Radicals for one, Porsches and other higher power track cars for another, Souped up turbos for another, etc
(Edit: I'm assuming driving ability will norm out. Plus people with similar marque cars tend to have some kind of respectful fraternity so hopefully more respectful behaviours)
I think that if an experienced driver in a Cuppie at a track day will accept that he or she will probably not get a clear lap all day. I aim for 4 clear corners on a lap. I think that's a realistic expectation and gives a nice experience for the passenger. It's reasonable to expect any car to compromise 1 corner but a car that compromises a lap for anybody should be sent home. I had to dummy the X6M to the right and draw in across the circuit to block me before switching back to the left to make the pass. I knew that he would block right and that clearly showed his intent. No interest in doing anything else but block the car behind.he was dangerous, inconsiderate and downright stupid. He should be ashamed of himself. As should the driver of the White 991 RS and the other cars on the day that employed similar driving eticate. Bloody bad form.
I think, taking a cup car to a 'Billy' track day where there are X6's cutting about, is a much an utter waste of time as it must be frustrating.
Billy, in his X6 etc, will see a cup car in his rear view and never pull over, neither will the Caterhams. Pub bragging rights are far more important.
Surley it would be far better to slot into a private track day, where you know the drivers/ cars are up to your level and similar cars are tracking too.
I'm a relative novice, but avoid open track days like the plague and only attend those well organised smaller events, as I did recently at Castle Combe, where you know who and what cars are going.
Billy, in his X6 etc, will see a cup car in his rear view and never pull over, neither will the Caterhams. Pub bragging rights are far more important.
Surley it would be far better to slot into a private track day, where you know the drivers/ cars are up to your level and similar cars are tracking too.
I'm a relative novice, but avoid open track days like the plague and only attend those well organised smaller events, as I did recently at Castle Combe, where you know who and what cars are going.
Edited by Robbo66 on Saturday 11th June 13:33
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