GT3 RS - 'HAS' to move to forced induction...
Discussion
Sat at my desk having returned from another epic Le Mans trip, made all the memorable for the final minutes - couldn't make it up really.
One thing that really struck me while watching the race was the distinct lack of pace in the LMGTE Pro Porsche RSR's. Some context for those who weren't there.
During practice and quali both Ford (in their new car) and Ferrari in the new 488 GTB were so far ahead of the pack that they were sandbagged / given a weight penalty (unheard of before at Le Mans). Ferrari were given a smaller penalty and allowed to increase their air restriction diameters but the mighty Ford GT had to take the biggest penalty. The qualifying positions spoke for themselves and during the race even with the penalties to the top teams Porsche struggled to match the pace, eventually resulting in all but 1 of the Porsche's retiring.
Take a look at the results table below. The best laps (last column) showing the Porsche being some way off the pace of the (sandbagged) leaders.
The chat between me and a few pals watching - surely for Porsche to take the game back to Ford & Ferrari the GT3 / GT3 RS will now be forced to introduce a turbo motor. GT3 / GTEPro rule state the race car must be based upon the road car architecture & platform so to raise their game they would have to make the move with either the 991.2 (doubtful) RS or the 99X RS.
Could the 991 GT3 RS be the last of the N/A cars.
Thoughts?
One thing that really struck me while watching the race was the distinct lack of pace in the LMGTE Pro Porsche RSR's. Some context for those who weren't there.
During practice and quali both Ford (in their new car) and Ferrari in the new 488 GTB were so far ahead of the pack that they were sandbagged / given a weight penalty (unheard of before at Le Mans). Ferrari were given a smaller penalty and allowed to increase their air restriction diameters but the mighty Ford GT had to take the biggest penalty. The qualifying positions spoke for themselves and during the race even with the penalties to the top teams Porsche struggled to match the pace, eventually resulting in all but 1 of the Porsche's retiring.
Take a look at the results table below. The best laps (last column) showing the Porsche being some way off the pace of the (sandbagged) leaders.
The chat between me and a few pals watching - surely for Porsche to take the game back to Ford & Ferrari the GT3 / GT3 RS will now be forced to introduce a turbo motor. GT3 / GTEPro rule state the race car must be based upon the road car architecture & platform so to raise their game they would have to make the move with either the 991.2 (doubtful) RS or the 99X RS.
Could the 991 GT3 RS be the last of the N/A cars.
Thoughts?
Slickhillsy said:
Sat at my desk having returned from another epic Le Mans trip, made all the memorable for the final minutes - couldn't make it up really.
One thing that really struck me while watching the race was the distinct lack of pace in the LMGTE Pro Porsche RSR's. Some context for those who weren't there.
During practice and quali both Ford (in their new car) and Ferrari in the new 488 GTB were so far ahead of the pack that they were sandbagged / given a weight penalty (unheard of before at Le Mans). Ferrari were given a smaller penalty and allowed to increase their air restriction diameters but the mighty Ford GT had to take the biggest penalty. The qualifying positions spoke for themselves and during the race even with the penalties to the top teams Porsche struggled to match the pace, eventually resulting in all but 1 of the Porsche's retiring.
Take a look at the results table below. The best laps (last column) showing the Porsche being some way off the pace of the (sandbagged) leaders.
The chat between me and a few pals watching - surely for Porsche to take the game back to Ford & Ferrari the GT3 / GT3 RS will now be forced to introduce a turbo motor. GT3 / GTEPro rule state the race car must be based upon the road car architecture & platform so to raise their game they would have to make the move with either the 991.2 (doubtful) RS or the 99X RS.
Could the 991 GT3 RS be the last of the N/A cars.
Thoughts?
My 18th year and always an epic trip in one way or another!One thing that really struck me while watching the race was the distinct lack of pace in the LMGTE Pro Porsche RSR's. Some context for those who weren't there.
During practice and quali both Ford (in their new car) and Ferrari in the new 488 GTB were so far ahead of the pack that they were sandbagged / given a weight penalty (unheard of before at Le Mans). Ferrari were given a smaller penalty and allowed to increase their air restriction diameters but the mighty Ford GT had to take the biggest penalty. The qualifying positions spoke for themselves and during the race even with the penalties to the top teams Porsche struggled to match the pace, eventually resulting in all but 1 of the Porsche's retiring.
Take a look at the results table below. The best laps (last column) showing the Porsche being some way off the pace of the (sandbagged) leaders.
The chat between me and a few pals watching - surely for Porsche to take the game back to Ford & Ferrari the GT3 / GT3 RS will now be forced to introduce a turbo motor. GT3 / GTEPro rule state the race car must be based upon the road car architecture & platform so to raise their game they would have to make the move with either the 991.2 (doubtful) RS or the 99X RS.
Could the 991 GT3 RS be the last of the N/A cars.
Thoughts?
I was musing the same question with some pals - GT class 911's haven't been really competitive for some years. We came to the conclusion the Porsche budget was steered towards 919 development so GT has become the poor cousin.
The other question was why haven't Audi entered the R8 into Le Mans GT?
To answer your question -991 GT RS last of the NA? Apparently not. Well documented from Porsche HQ GT cars will remain NA for the future / next gen.
There's been a mid engined turbocharged 911 in that past. Won Le Mans in 1998 - GT1.
Whats happened to the mid engined Ferrari 488 rival thats was talked about by Porsche a few years back?
Whatever happens also important to adopt carbon tub tech by Ferrari, Lamborghini and Porsche to catch up with Mclaren/Ford etc - huge advantage in GT racing.
Whats happened to the mid engined Ferrari 488 rival thats was talked about by Porsche a few years back?
Whatever happens also important to adopt carbon tub tech by Ferrari, Lamborghini and Porsche to catch up with Mclaren/Ford etc - huge advantage in GT racing.
9e 28 said:
Whatever happens also important to adopt carbon tub tech by Ferrari, Lamborghini and Porsche to catch up with Mclaren/Ford etc - huge advantage in GT racing.
Just how has the carbon tub been a huge advantage in gt racing? Ford were imo given a huge advantage in bop for various reasons by the ACO and just made it too obvious in the end. Mclaren are generally quick but hardly been vastly superior either have they....?. The gt racing cars are nothing like the minimum weight of the single seat open wheel cars so the weight saving that cf offers is not anything like as important.Rear diffusors apart, Porsche are struggling imo as they are up against detuned engines that on the road cars produce much more power. engine restrictors have no impact on torque so every car is producing the 500 or whatever hp allowed way before the rsr or gt3r. Turbos aren't necessarily the solution but it's hard to see a 5+litre NA car in a 911 either so it's the pretty much no other solution unless the fuel regs for example change to favour the smaller capacity NA cars.
Edited by isaldiri on Wednesday 22 June 21:20
isaldiri said:
Just how has the carbon tub been a huge advantage in gt racing? Ford were imo given a huge advantage in bop for various reasons by the ACO and just made it too obvious in the end. Mclaren are generally quick but hardly been vastly superior either have they....?. The gt racing cars are nothing like the minimum weight of the single seat open wheel cars so the weight saving that cf offers is not anything like as important.
Rear diffusors apart, Porsche are struggling imo as they are up against detuned engines that on the road cars produce much more power. engine restrictors have no impact on torque so every car is producing the 500 or whatever hp allowed way before the rsr or gt3r. Turbos aren't necessarily the solution but it's hard to see a 5+litre NA car in a 911 either so it's the pretty much no other solution unless the fuel regs for example change to favour the smaller capacity NA cars.
Agreed. It is an interesting dilemma. Where as most of the market (save Lambo, Aston - select Porsche halo models) has gone the forced induction, their hand seemingly forced by legislation if they want to win the HP power war - it's actually seem said manufactures move the game on in a massive way.Rear diffusors apart, Porsche are struggling imo as they are up against detuned engines that on the road cars produce much more power. engine restrictors have no impact on torque so every car is producing the 500 or whatever hp allowed way before the rsr or gt3r. Turbos aren't necessarily the solution but it's hard to see a 5+litre NA car in a 911 either so it's the pretty much no other solution unless the fuel regs for example change to favour the smaller capacity NA cars.
Edited by isaldiri on Wednesday 22 June 21:20
Stood on Arnage corner with a beer Sat night and watching the new Ford we all agreed we are at the beginning of something new. They looked mighty in every way, almost like an LMP1 car actually. We were lucky to see the grey road car that was crawling about the place as well - breathtakingly good looking.
Me personally, a huge Ferrari fan am saddened that they've (had to) gone the turbo route as no matter what anyone says the purity of the N/A has been lost. Ironically we all thought the best sounding car on track (well close to the biblical sounding Corvettes) was the old 458 Italia (that won it's GTE AM class. That V8 with open pipes sounded like ripping sheets and could be heard long after it had disappeared from view.
I do hope they keep the GT3 models N/A - be interesting to see how Porsche counter the oppositions progress.
Slickhillsy said:
Agreed. It is an interesting dilemma. Where as most of the market (save Lambo, Aston - select Porsche halo models) has gone the forced induction, their hand seemingly forced by legislation if they want to win the HP power war - it's actually seem said manufactures move the game on in a massive way.
Stood on Arnage corner with a beer Sat night and watching the new Ford we all agreed we are at the beginning of something new. They looked mighty in every way, almost like an LMP1 car actually. We were lucky to see the grey road car that was crawling about the place as well - breathtakingly good looking.
Me personally, a huge Ferrari fan am saddened that they've (had to) gone the turbo route as no matter what anyone says the purity of the N/A has been lost. Ironically we all thought the best sounding car on track (well close to the biblical sounding Corvettes) was the old 458 Italia (that won it's GTE AM class. That V8 with open pipes sounded like ripping sheets and could be heard long after it had disappeared from view.
I do hope they keep the GT3 models N/A - be interesting to see how Porsche counter the oppositions progress.
Amen on the Vettes and the 458's.. Just glorious. I think the Fords may be back at Le Mans next year then put in a museum somewhere. It doesnt have the feel of anything permanent to me. Stood on Arnage corner with a beer Sat night and watching the new Ford we all agreed we are at the beginning of something new. They looked mighty in every way, almost like an LMP1 car actually. We were lucky to see the grey road car that was crawling about the place as well - breathtakingly good looking.
Me personally, a huge Ferrari fan am saddened that they've (had to) gone the turbo route as no matter what anyone says the purity of the N/A has been lost. Ironically we all thought the best sounding car on track (well close to the biblical sounding Corvettes) was the old 458 Italia (that won it's GTE AM class. That V8 with open pipes sounded like ripping sheets and could be heard long after it had disappeared from view.
I do hope they keep the GT3 models N/A - be interesting to see how Porsche counter the oppositions progress.
Slickhillsy said:
Agreed. It is an interesting dilemma. Where as most of the market (save Lambo, Aston - select Porsche halo models) has gone the forced induction, their hand seemingly forced by legislation if they want to win the HP power war - it's actually seem said manufactures move the game on in a massive way.
Stood on Arnage corner with a beer Sat night and watching the new Ford we all agreed we are at the beginning of something new. They looked mighty in every way, almost like an LMP1 car actually. We were lucky to see the grey road car that was crawling about the place as well - breathtakingly good looking..
Interestingly enough though, the merc amg gt race car has retained the old 6.2 litre NA engine from the sls road and race car rather than the road car's 4 litre turbo. so at the moment it's a power issue than necessarily forced induction, at least until rules move more towards turbo which imo is likely to happen once Audi drop the NA v10 (and a huge shame that would be)...Stood on Arnage corner with a beer Sat night and watching the new Ford we all agreed we are at the beginning of something new. They looked mighty in every way, almost like an LMP1 car actually. We were lucky to see the grey road car that was crawling about the place as well - breathtakingly good looking..
isaldiri said:
Interestingly enough though, the merc amg gt race car has retained the old 6.2 litre NA engine from the sls road and race car rather than the road car's 4 litre turbo. so at the moment it's a power issue than necessarily forced induction, at least until rules move more towards turbo which imo is likely to happen once Audi drop the NA v10 (and a huge shame that would be)...
Yep, its a power V economy issue. I would be very surprised if the new RSR isn't almost mid engined with a turbo engine - which means something will need to be done at road car level. The GT3/RS ranges are so far removed from the Cup and RSR vehicles these days that there's no credible association. Porsche may well see an argument for producing an homologation special which seperate from the GT series without too much detriment to the GT range. The smaller turbo units also offer pacaging benefits. It's not the end of the world. modern turbo untils are much more tractable than of old and there will probably still be a place for an NA performance sports model in the range. Steve Rance said:
Yep, its a power V economy issue. I would be very surprised if the new RSR isn't almost mid engined with a turbo engine - which means something will need to be done at road car level. The GT3/RS ranges are so far removed from the Cup and RSR vehicles these days that there's no credible association. Porsche may well see an argument for producing an homologation special which seperate from the GT series without too much detriment to the GT range. The smaller turbo units also offer pacaging benefits. It's not the end of the world. modern turbo untils are much more tractable than of old and there will probably still be a place for an NA performance sports model in the range.
SportAuto in Germany a few months back ran a story that Porsche were granted an exemption to move the engine forward for the RSR so there's not even any homologation requirement I think even if the RSR effectively fails to really be a 911 anymore with the engine set forward.Evolved said:
I honestly don't understand this concern re forced induction, the most iconic Fezza was turbo'd and even now is still ranked up there in performance stakes. Having owned lots of NA and FI performance cars, I've always had the bigger smile after getting out of FI.
Not knocking FI. I've had a few myself and they are a great thing and yes they can sound 'good' - see here for example. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YPabCzxMXMIt more of a purist thing, granted a more difficult argument with the modern twin scroll architecture (helping hugely with throttle response). If you were stood on the banks last weekend and heard the new 488 GTB come past you'd have hardly noticed, yet when the 'older' 458 showed it's face it sent shivers down your back. Same goes for the RSR, that gorgeous flat 6 motorsport howl would be lost with a blower fitted (see 911 turbo).
The Corvette (and the Aston) were just a dirrrty dirrrty sound
Shame but it seems we are well on our way down this path.
isaldiri said:
9e 28 said:
Whatever happens also important to adopt carbon tub tech by Ferrari, Lamborghini and Porsche to catch up with Mclaren/Ford etc - huge advantage in GT racing.
Just how has the carbon tub been a huge advantage in gt racing? Ford were imo given a huge advantage in bop for various reasons by the ACO and just made it too obvious in the end. Mclaren are generally quick but hardly been vastly superior either have they....?. The gt racing cars are nothing like the minimum weight of the single seat open wheel cars so the weight saving that cf offers is not anything like as important.Rear diffusors apart, Porsche are struggling imo as they are up against detuned engines that on the road cars produce much more power. engine restrictors have no impact on torque so every car is producing the 500 or whatever hp allowed way before the rsr or gt3r. Turbos aren't necessarily the solution but it's hard to see a 5+litre NA car in a 911 either so it's the pretty much no other solution unless the fuel regs for example change to favour the smaller capacity NA cars.
Edited by isaldiri on Wednesday 22 June 21:20
On a general front I think all sports cars manufacturers should follow in McLaren and Fords footsteps. Its the future and the way forward not only in sports cars but for all cars.
9e 28 said:
The Ford GT has a huge advantage because its turbocharged and has a CF race tub (note the use of the word "also"). Ford covers ground like a Le Mans prototype car as its been developed primarily as race car. As far as I'm aware the Mclaren race car doesn't have turbos but I'm not convinced the Macca could compete even with turbochargers. Whilst the Macca chassis is very stiff its low cost carbon construction is not particularly light. A proper CF race chassis like the GT40 is not only lightweight but also very stiff as you're aware. The 488 not being able to compete has nothing to do with power and everything to do with the two cars chassis and aero. Ones a race car chassis the other is not. Whilst the tech and company , Carbotech, that make the Macca chassis is clever you cannot compare the Macca's chassis to the bespoke Ford GT chassis - totally different construction methods. The results will continue to speak for themselves.
On a general front I think all sports cars manufacturers should follow in McLaren and Fords footsteps. Its the future and the way forward not only in sports cars but for all cars.
Check again. The Mclaren race car absolutely is turbocharged. On a general front I think all sports cars manufacturers should follow in McLaren and Fords footsteps. Its the future and the way forward not only in sports cars but for all cars.
The performance advantage the ford gt had at le mans was due to an epic clusterfk from the ACO over balance of performance and not necessarily through any intrinsic spec advantage. Given that bop exists, a cf chassis is not going to offer anything like the same advantage for heavy GT racing cars as single seaters.
Cf chassis for road cars i do like as the ford gt will be very light compared to any other car it seems (albeit with cf panels too i think) and the Mclarens are a decent amount lighter (probably 100kg) than any other comparable mid engine sports car as well.
isaldiri said:
9e 28 said:
The Ford GT has a huge advantage because its turbocharged and has a CF race tub (note the use of the word "also"). Ford covers ground like a Le Mans prototype car as its been developed primarily as race car. As far as I'm aware the Mclaren race car doesn't have turbos but I'm not convinced the Macca could compete even with turbochargers. Whilst the Macca chassis is very stiff its low cost carbon construction is not particularly light. A proper CF race chassis like the GT40 is not only lightweight but also very stiff as you're aware. The 488 not being able to compete has nothing to do with power and everything to do with the two cars chassis and aero. Ones a race car chassis the other is not. Whilst the tech and company , Carbotech, that make the Macca chassis is clever you cannot compare the Macca's chassis to the bespoke Ford GT chassis - totally different construction methods. The results will continue to speak for themselves.
On a general front I think all sports cars manufacturers should follow in McLaren and Fords footsteps. Its the future and the way forward not only in sports cars but for all cars.
Check again. The Mclaren race car absolutely is turbocharged. On a general front I think all sports cars manufacturers should follow in McLaren and Fords footsteps. Its the future and the way forward not only in sports cars but for all cars.
The performance advantage the ford gt had at le mans was due to an epic clusterfk from the ACO over balance of performance and not necessarily through any intrinsic spec advantage. Given that bop exists, a cf chassis is not going to offer anything like the same advantage for heavy GT racing cars as single seaters.
Cf chassis for road cars i do like as the ford gt will be very light compared to any other car it seems (albeit with cf panels too i think) and the Mclarens are a decent amount lighter (probably 100kg) than any other comparable mid engine sports car as well.
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