Web Designers...
Discussion
Further to my previous question about hosting (which we have concluded isn't something we should get involved in!) I have a query about web design.
We need a new site. It will be a standard 5 pager with 3 or 4 subscription options. Then once people have paid there will be a membership area with guides, videos etc, preferably drip fed monthly relative to their sign up date, (and subsequent payments).
I gather there are a million and one ways to do this. I've spoken to countless agencies and builders quoting anything from a few hundred to £15k.
Your one man band types say Wordpress with some plugins but don't sound too confident. Umbraco has been mentioned but was dismissed by a Magento guy. The most impressive was the Magento agency who have a track record in building multimillion turnover sites, their level of detail and knowledge was what I want, but I'm not sure we really need all the ecommerce bells and whistles you get for £15k. https://www.indez.com/conversion-suite
Help!
We need a new site. It will be a standard 5 pager with 3 or 4 subscription options. Then once people have paid there will be a membership area with guides, videos etc, preferably drip fed monthly relative to their sign up date, (and subsequent payments).
I gather there are a million and one ways to do this. I've spoken to countless agencies and builders quoting anything from a few hundred to £15k.
Your one man band types say Wordpress with some plugins but don't sound too confident. Umbraco has been mentioned but was dismissed by a Magento guy. The most impressive was the Magento agency who have a track record in building multimillion turnover sites, their level of detail and knowledge was what I want, but I'm not sure we really need all the ecommerce bells and whistles you get for £15k. https://www.indez.com/conversion-suite
Help!
I think you need to set a budget and decide if this is a data driven site or a colour coded content project. You're probably going to get a million and one different prices/quotes/thoughts because there's (from the sounds of it) little in the way of a brief
You could get a really really slick and quick site and hate the look of it - people wont want to pin themselves down to 3000 revisions and you sitting there looking at pantones trying to work out which one matches the t shirts you've ordered
You could get a really really slick and quick site and hate the look of it - people wont want to pin themselves down to 3000 revisions and you sitting there looking at pantones trying to work out which one matches the t shirts you've ordered
andy-xr said:
I think you need to set a budget and decide if this is a data driven site or a colour coded content project. You're probably going to get a million and one different prices/quotes/thoughts because there's (from the sounds of it) little in the way of a brief
Appreciate that but it's difficult to do when every person you speak to comes up with new possibilities and options. It's not an ecommerce site in the normal sense, there won't be load of products to revise, probably just 3 subscription levels. There are sites out there similar I can refer to but it's proving difficult to find someone who has experience of building a site selling B2B services, and that's what I want, not someone winging it for the first time.
The challenge you will face if you go to someone who has done this many times before is that they will:
a) Know how much to charge - i.e. £15,000
b) Know that they need to pin you down to a full brief (not "standard fives pages") before they build it (or at least, each feature of it) by carrying out some analysis and design work with you rather than producing variations for you to say "nah, don't like it". Which feeds back to (a), it takes time to do that analysis and design work - even with "agile" processes.
So your choice really is to go with one of the cheap guys and keep repeating the process until you get what you want, or stump up the full amount and work with the experienced guys accepting their advice on how to do it and what you really need rather than what you think you need.
Only you know whether you have enough business to justify £15,000 or not, if you don't like those numbers then you need to decide if you want to roll the dice ...
a) Know how much to charge - i.e. £15,000
b) Know that they need to pin you down to a full brief (not "standard fives pages") before they build it (or at least, each feature of it) by carrying out some analysis and design work with you rather than producing variations for you to say "nah, don't like it". Which feeds back to (a), it takes time to do that analysis and design work - even with "agile" processes.
So your choice really is to go with one of the cheap guys and keep repeating the process until you get what you want, or stump up the full amount and work with the experienced guys accepting their advice on how to do it and what you really need rather than what you think you need.
Only you know whether you have enough business to justify £15,000 or not, if you don't like those numbers then you need to decide if you want to roll the dice ...
technodup said:
andy-xr said:
I think you need to set a budget and decide if this is a data driven site or a colour coded content project. You're probably going to get a million and one different prices/quotes/thoughts because there's (from the sounds of it) little in the way of a brief
Appreciate that but it's difficult to do when every person you speak to comes up with new possibilities and options. It's not an ecommerce site in the normal sense, there won't be load of products to revise, probably just 3 subscription levels. There are sites out there similar I can refer to but it's proving difficult to find someone who has experience of building a site selling B2B services, and that's what I want, not someone winging it for the first time.
You probably need to look at an agency's work, sit down with them, pay them their consultancy fee for doing that and then decide if you're going to go ahead with them. Expect to be challenged, a lot before anything happens because a lot of these will give you a few revisions on some things, but there'll be an expectation that you pay upfront for some of the project before they start building.
The platform or application (Wordpress/Magento/Umbraco/whatever) doesnt matter to anyone other than the guys building it and the ones supporting it - the question about it is wrong. It's what you want to do with it that counts more
In car speak, here's what I think you're doing
Op goes to Ford dealership
OP - Hello...I'm looking for a car.
Salesman...Sure, we sell cars here
OP - So I want to be able to drive somewhere, and what do you think of Vauxhalls?
Salesman - Many if not all our cars will let you drive many places, Sir. We dont recommend Vauxhalls here
OP - OK, so how much would it cost me to get something that I could drive to many places in?
Salesman - it depends what and how you want to drive. We have many cars that could do that for you starting from £500, through to £30,000
OP - but I want to be able to drive somewhere that's not too expensive and it has aircon (3 subscription levels)
Salesman - most of our cars have aircon, is there anything else you think you really want
OP - To be able to drive somewhere....this is tedious, I'm going to ask Pistonheads
What you've yet to work out is, what mpg you'd like (ROI), what's the road tax (your OPEX), is it smart to look at (the design) and is that important to me (the weighting on aesthetics). Do I want a big car (ie scale up for higher amounts of traffic) or a small car (constant demand and use of resources). How much does it cost to service and change the oil (the ongoing maintenance and support costs) and will my wife and family get in (can my customers and staff use it easily)
Then you're starting to get an idea of a business case and a brief together.
Edited by andy-xr on Tuesday 12th July 16:15
Problem is some webbys (mainly the mid size ones) will take your money and deliver the brief without really caring if it works for you or not. I agree with Lee Magento is overkill and adds complexity which suits the agency you spoke to as they will get ongoing work from it.
I have a company in mind who will work with you on the project after it goes live to ensure it actually does whats needed - PM on way
I have a company in mind who will work with you on the project after it goes live to ensure it actually does whats needed - PM on way
With web stuff there are many ways to skin a cat and what you need could be fit into a CMS like wordpress with some customisation to deal with the payment side of things or Magneto with some customisation to deal with the information side of things or indeed a scratch built system or any number of other ways.
I don't think Magnto is the way to go to be honest, it doesn't sound like there is a huge amount of overlap between what Mangeto does and what you need. It sounds a bit like they're trying to shoehorn your needs into what they already know.
As your spec at the moment is quite vague I think you could easily spend £500 or £15,000 on this and get value for money (or ripped off). But if you're looking to do it on a budget I'd be looking at choosing a CMS, putting your content into categories (month 1, month 2 etc) with restricted access. Paypal or similar for the subscription and a custom script to adjust user permissions on those categories and how long they've been subscribed for.
It sounds like the content itself is where the value is rather then the mechanics of the site so get the basics right and then refine it as time goes on and your knowledge of what your customers need grows.
I don't think Magnto is the way to go to be honest, it doesn't sound like there is a huge amount of overlap between what Mangeto does and what you need. It sounds a bit like they're trying to shoehorn your needs into what they already know.
As your spec at the moment is quite vague I think you could easily spend £500 or £15,000 on this and get value for money (or ripped off). But if you're looking to do it on a budget I'd be looking at choosing a CMS, putting your content into categories (month 1, month 2 etc) with restricted access. Paypal or similar for the subscription and a custom script to adjust user permissions on those categories and how long they've been subscribed for.
It sounds like the content itself is where the value is rather then the mechanics of the site so get the basics right and then refine it as time goes on and your knowledge of what your customers need grows.
Flooble said:
So your choice really is to go with one of the cheap guys and keep repeating the process until you get what you want, or stump up the full amount and work with the experienced guys accepting their advice on how to do it and what you really need rather than what you think you need.
It'll not be the first option for sure.We're happy to invest in this, but we need to know who and what we're investing in. And they have to be in Scotland too, not interested in long distance, it's hard enough as it is.
Just spoken to the company who did Brewdog's subscription service, who use yet another system. I'm losing the will to live.
technodup said:
Flooble said:
So your choice really is to go with one of the cheap guys and keep repeating the process until you get what you want, or stump up the full amount and work with the experienced guys accepting their advice on how to do it and what you really need rather than what you think you need.
It'll not be the first option for sure.We're happy to invest in this, but we need to know who and what we're investing in. And they have to be in Scotland too, not interested in long distance, it's hard enough as it is.
Just spoken to the company who did Brewdog's subscription service, who use yet another system. I'm losing the will to live.
As most above said, the question of Wordpress, Magento etc shouldn't be your first concern - that's really just an implementation detail.
A very detailed description of what you want to achieve with the site is the best thing you can create right now. Maybe sketch out some of your ideas and refine them. It's a difficult process. Find the best similar websites and try and understand why their site layouts are successful.
If you can do this well, a good company will suggest, where appropriate, better ways of doing things. The actual graphic design is probably best done near the end.
So many times we get a spec from clients (we're not web designers but our products are web based and customised per client) and then they keep changing it after we think it's done. This inevitably leads to increased costs.
This is just general advice.
A very detailed description of what you want to achieve with the site is the best thing you can create right now. Maybe sketch out some of your ideas and refine them. It's a difficult process. Find the best similar websites and try and understand why their site layouts are successful.
If you can do this well, a good company will suggest, where appropriate, better ways of doing things. The actual graphic design is probably best done near the end.
So many times we get a spec from clients (we're not web designers but our products are web based and customised per client) and then they keep changing it after we think it's done. This inevitably leads to increased costs.
This is just general advice.
This is the sort of thing I specialise in, so thought I'd give my two pence...
I agree with the above that this doesn't really fit with Magento - unless you need different tax rates, shipping rates, maybe different versions of public facing part of the site all with one administration area. But I can't imagine you would, so that's most of Magento's strengths out the window.
From my experience I'd say you're on the cusp of Wordpress/completely custom. Possibly leveraging Wordpress' registration system for the subscription side could save the project a bit of time and cost - plus you'd have a decent administration area for updating content right off the bat. I wouldn't go using too many plugins though - ideally I'd say get your agency to create custom plugins for most of your custom functionality, otherwise it can be a bit of a spaghetti mess of plugins and maintaining compatibility can be an issue, especially longer term.
I also agree that you really want to focus on someone who can translate ideas into a well design website with a good user experience - the framework should be an after-thought. Find someone who is well versed in creating prototypes and mock ups, far more useful than having a 100 page document detailing field names and font sizes! Plus you get a much more fluid approach to designing the system.
Oh, and make sure whoever you choose has mentioned what they plan to do about testing! If you plan to constantly develop this over the years then you'll want some form of unit testing so that you can be sure nothing breaks as more development is added!
If you change your mind on locality, I work with clients all over the World without an issue.
I agree with the above that this doesn't really fit with Magento - unless you need different tax rates, shipping rates, maybe different versions of public facing part of the site all with one administration area. But I can't imagine you would, so that's most of Magento's strengths out the window.
From my experience I'd say you're on the cusp of Wordpress/completely custom. Possibly leveraging Wordpress' registration system for the subscription side could save the project a bit of time and cost - plus you'd have a decent administration area for updating content right off the bat. I wouldn't go using too many plugins though - ideally I'd say get your agency to create custom plugins for most of your custom functionality, otherwise it can be a bit of a spaghetti mess of plugins and maintaining compatibility can be an issue, especially longer term.
I also agree that you really want to focus on someone who can translate ideas into a well design website with a good user experience - the framework should be an after-thought. Find someone who is well versed in creating prototypes and mock ups, far more useful than having a 100 page document detailing field names and font sizes! Plus you get a much more fluid approach to designing the system.
Oh, and make sure whoever you choose has mentioned what they plan to do about testing! If you plan to constantly develop this over the years then you'll want some form of unit testing so that you can be sure nothing breaks as more development is added!
If you change your mind on locality, I work with clients all over the World without an issue.
technodup said:
Further to my previous question about hosting (which we have concluded isn't something we should get involved in!) I have a query about web design.
We need a new site. It will be a standard 5 pager with 3 or 4 subscription options. Then once people have paid there will be a membership area with guides, videos etc, preferably drip fed monthly relative to their sign up date, (and subsequent payments).
I gather there are a million and one ways to do this. I've spoken to countless agencies and builders quoting anything from a few hundred to £15k.
Your one man band types say Wordpress with some plugins but don't sound too confident. Umbraco has been mentioned but was dismissed by a Magento guy. The most impressive was the Magento agency who have a track record in building multimillion turnover sites, their level of detail and knowledge was what I want, but I'm not sure we really need all the ecommerce bells and whistles you get for £15k. https://www.indez.com/conversion-suite
Help!
Your hosting post led me to believe you were or were wanting to become a web dev company???? Why would you need multiple hosting for the above,We need a new site. It will be a standard 5 pager with 3 or 4 subscription options. Then once people have paid there will be a membership area with guides, videos etc, preferably drip fed monthly relative to their sign up date, (and subsequent payments).
I gather there are a million and one ways to do this. I've spoken to countless agencies and builders quoting anything from a few hundred to £15k.
Your one man band types say Wordpress with some plugins but don't sound too confident. Umbraco has been mentioned but was dismissed by a Magento guy. The most impressive was the Magento agency who have a track record in building multimillion turnover sites, their level of detail and knowledge was what I want, but I'm not sure we really need all the ecommerce bells and whistles you get for £15k. https://www.indez.com/conversion-suite
Help!
jonamv8 said:
Your hosting post led me to believe you were or were wanting to become a web dev company???? Why would you need multiple hosting for the above,
Christ no, I don't have a scooby and have even less interest. The question about hosting was more about protection given we outsource web work and so an external company essentially controls our clients sites. I just wondered about the implications on cost and practicality if we could somehow bring it in house.That's a completely separate issue to this site. For various reasons we are probably looking for a different developer for our own site, hence the questions here.
All the professional advice on here is very good indeed. I also think WP will likely fit the bill (we've implemented a fair few).
But the most important thing, imo, is to find someone you get along with. Do they listen to you and then understand your business? Are they interested in your business? Are you talking to someone you can talk strategically to on a peer to peer level? Unless it's a five page brochure site, you need to build a working relationship rather than get an order from a one-off supplier. So, meet face to face and strike out those people you didn't like; follow up on those you gel with.
But the most important thing, imo, is to find someone you get along with. Do they listen to you and then understand your business? Are they interested in your business? Are you talking to someone you can talk strategically to on a peer to peer level? Unless it's a five page brochure site, you need to build a working relationship rather than get an order from a one-off supplier. So, meet face to face and strike out those people you didn't like; follow up on those you gel with.
technodup said:
jonamv8 said:
Your hosting post led me to believe you were or were wanting to become a web dev company???? Why would you need multiple hosting for the above,
Christ no, I don't have a scooby and have even less interest. The question about hosting was more about protection given we outsource web work and so an external company essentially controls our clients sites. I just wondered about the implications on cost and practicality if we could somehow bring it in house.That's a completely separate issue to this site. For various reasons we are probably looking for a different developer for our own site, hence the questions here.
Happy to discuss your requirements by phone to give you our views if you'd like, happy to offer a PH'er 15 mins of my time and have helped a few in the past, just pm me if you'd like
KrissKross said:
What I am looking for is an impartial and skilled person to review our website(s) and make suggestions.
Not quote thousands for something that will not actually help the business.
Does such a person exist, if so they will have some business from me!
We do a lot of this! They do exist you've just got to weed out the amateurs before you put you hand in your pocket and ignore the large agencies that are there to service FTSE companies!Not quote thousands for something that will not actually help the business.
Does such a person exist, if so they will have some business from me!
KrissKross said:
What I am looking for is an impartial and skilled person to review our website(s) and make suggestions.
Not quote thousands for something that will not actually help the business.
Does such a person exist, if so they will have some business from me!
Do it yourself this helps - https://m.semrush.comNot quote thousands for something that will not actually help the business.
Does such a person exist, if so they will have some business from me!
Get a trial it's mainly for developers / agency's but I thought it was worth the $60 when I had my company.
Edited by DSLiverpool on Wednesday 13th July 18:08
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