Starting problem '98 4.2
Discussion
Now I know that I'm going to have to check this through methodically, but I'm just asking in case anyone else has had this exact fault.
On rather too many occasions, when I haven't used it for a few days, it refuses to start. (Yes, I know, it's sulking!)
On the first push of the 'Start' button, the dash lights up, the pump primes (so the immobiliser is off), but holding 'Start' down again doesn't fire the solenoid.
I check that it's 'de-immobilised'. Try again. Nothing. Keep trying... maybe press the 'Stop' button and start the sequence again. Keep 'Start' pressed for 30 seconds. Sometimes jab at it (although I know it's not the switch!). Sometimes lock and unlock the car again and try the start sequence again. Nothing. But eventually, without warning/ without doing anything different/ with no difference in the lights or sounds, it just starts as if it's the first time of asking.
Thereafter it will be fine, it's not failed to start again that day... until last Sunday when it sulked again after being parked up for only an hour. So now it's serious; it has the potential to embarrass and strand me, so I need to address it forthwith.
It seems for all the world like an intermittant solenoid, but I am concerned that it may actually be a fault in the 'Start ECU' (is that within the engine ECU or a separate box?). It's clearly not the button nor the wiring between it and the ECU as it initiates the start sequence perfectly well. Only thing I've done so far is to swap out the starter relay in the boot, and that made no difference.
Your thoughts/experience welcomed.
Cheers.
Rik
On rather too many occasions, when I haven't used it for a few days, it refuses to start. (Yes, I know, it's sulking!)
On the first push of the 'Start' button, the dash lights up, the pump primes (so the immobiliser is off), but holding 'Start' down again doesn't fire the solenoid.
I check that it's 'de-immobilised'. Try again. Nothing. Keep trying... maybe press the 'Stop' button and start the sequence again. Keep 'Start' pressed for 30 seconds. Sometimes jab at it (although I know it's not the switch!). Sometimes lock and unlock the car again and try the start sequence again. Nothing. But eventually, without warning/ without doing anything different/ with no difference in the lights or sounds, it just starts as if it's the first time of asking.
Thereafter it will be fine, it's not failed to start again that day... until last Sunday when it sulked again after being parked up for only an hour. So now it's serious; it has the potential to embarrass and strand me, so I need to address it forthwith.
It seems for all the world like an intermittant solenoid, but I am concerned that it may actually be a fault in the 'Start ECU' (is that within the engine ECU or a separate box?). It's clearly not the button nor the wiring between it and the ECU as it initiates the start sequence perfectly well. Only thing I've done so far is to swap out the starter relay in the boot, and that made no difference.
Your thoughts/experience welcomed.
Cheers.
Rik
The immobiliser kills three circuits, power to the fuel pump, power to the ecu and power to the starter motor.
Whats happening to the red light on the dash when you've pressed the button on the remote, does the red light keep flashing? Have you tried the square key?
More than likely it's the immobiliser failing. I've had very similar and just had it replaced.
Mine would refuse to start, bypass the immobiliser and all was well, then suddenly would work again, days later without touching it.
Give David a ring: http://www.hf-solutions.co.uk/home/4586165669
Whats happening to the red light on the dash when you've pressed the button on the remote, does the red light keep flashing? Have you tried the square key?
More than likely it's the immobiliser failing. I've had very similar and just had it replaced.
Mine would refuse to start, bypass the immobiliser and all was well, then suddenly would work again, days later without touching it.
Give David a ring: http://www.hf-solutions.co.uk/home/4586165669
Thanks for your reply.
It all behaves exactly as normal, ie on pressing the remote button, the red immob light goes out and the pump primes. It's just that the starter doesn't attempt anything on the subsequent sustained push of the 'Start' button.
Unfortunately I was not supplied with a square key... but I'm content that the remote is doing its job.
The prime suspect in my mind is the solenoid. To confirm that, I'm going to rig a small test bulb from it that pokes up through the scuttle, so that the next time is fails I can see if power is reaching it or not. If so it's starter out time. If not I may be ringing your contact...
It all behaves exactly as normal, ie on pressing the remote button, the red immob light goes out and the pump primes. It's just that the starter doesn't attempt anything on the subsequent sustained push of the 'Start' button.
Unfortunately I was not supplied with a square key... but I'm content that the remote is doing its job.
The prime suspect in my mind is the solenoid. To confirm that, I'm going to rig a small test bulb from it that pokes up through the scuttle, so that the next time is fails I can see if power is reaching it or not. If so it's starter out time. If not I may be ringing your contact...
Edited by Twinkam on Tuesday 2nd August 14:56
Edited by Twinkam on Tuesday 2nd August 14:56
Thanks to you guys I don't have to lose my knuckles and temper removing my starter. The fault does indeed lurk within the immobiliser box.
I just tried to start it, it wouldn't play. I tried again and as soon as I tapped the immobiliser it woke up. BINGO!
I have read elsewhere that when the immobiliser misbehaves like this it doesn't whack out sufficient volts to excite the solenoid but that it is sufficient to excite a bog standard 30A relay. So I'm going to try a fix using the existing solenoid feed to just trigger a new relay which will then feed a reliable 12v the few inches from the starter motor feed to the solenoid tag. This 'helping hand' has the advantage over bypassing of retaining all immobiliser function and therefore insurance cover.
I just tried to start it, it wouldn't play. I tried again and as soon as I tapped the immobiliser it woke up. BINGO!
I have read elsewhere that when the immobiliser misbehaves like this it doesn't whack out sufficient volts to excite the solenoid but that it is sufficient to excite a bog standard 30A relay. So I'm going to try a fix using the existing solenoid feed to just trigger a new relay which will then feed a reliable 12v the few inches from the starter motor feed to the solenoid tag. This 'helping hand' has the advantage over bypassing of retaining all immobiliser function and therefore insurance cover.
Twinkam said:
Thanks to you guys I don't have to lose my knuckles and temper removing my starter. The fault does indeed lurk within the immobiliser box.
I just tried to start it, it wouldn't play. I tried again and as soon as I tapped the immobiliser it woke up. BINGO!
I have read elsewhere that when the immobiliser misbehaves like this it doesn't whack out sufficient volts to excite the solenoid but that it is sufficient to excite a bog standard 30A relay. So I'm going to try a fix using the existing solenoid feed to just trigger a new relay which will then feed a reliable 12v the few inches from the starter motor feed to the solenoid tag. This 'helping hand' has the advantage over bypassing of retaining all immobiliser function and therefore insurance cover.
Mine started perfectly with a helper relay under the bonnet for several years until I replaced the entire alarm system. If you position the relay right you can even do it without any permanent wiring modification as the spade connector from the solenoid signal wire will fit straight onto the relay. I found a wire with a ring terminal onto the far side of the big fuse from the battery was the most convenient source of clean power, and a short wire with a spade on either end to go from relay to starter. If you use a relay with a screw mount tag you can just cable tie it up out of the way above the starter.I just tried to start it, it wouldn't play. I tried again and as soon as I tapped the immobiliser it woke up. BINGO!
I have read elsewhere that when the immobiliser misbehaves like this it doesn't whack out sufficient volts to excite the solenoid but that it is sufficient to excite a bog standard 30A relay. So I'm going to try a fix using the existing solenoid feed to just trigger a new relay which will then feed a reliable 12v the few inches from the starter motor feed to the solenoid tag. This 'helping hand' has the advantage over bypassing of retaining all immobiliser function and therefore insurance cover.
Edited by Tanguero on Tuesday 2nd August 21:28
Tanguero said:
Those are exactly the symptoms of the immobilisers internal relays beginning to fail. It is very very unlikely to be your starter solenoid. The immobiliser needs replacing as it will only get worse.
Definitely this. A measured thump in the vicinity of the immobiliser can shock the offending relay into throwing and then the car will fire. If this works for you then you know what you have to do.I just picked up a spare M36T2 immobiliser to test this, as I've also had problems with my starter motor which I'm now replacing but more of a 'just in case'
There's a good explanation on the issue over on the Abacus Alarms site, and in case anyone needs alarm stuff they were great to deal with when I needed an extra Fob and a replacement case for the original square fob that 'melted'
If it is relays in the unit, then these should (in theory) be very easy to replace - either being plug and play or soldered to the mother board of the unit and replaced with new parts from RS / Maplin / eBay etc.
Anyone tried that??
There's a good explanation on the issue over on the Abacus Alarms site, and in case anyone needs alarm stuff they were great to deal with when I needed an extra Fob and a replacement case for the original square fob that 'melted'
If it is relays in the unit, then these should (in theory) be very easy to replace - either being plug and play or soldered to the mother board of the unit and replaced with new parts from RS / Maplin / eBay etc.
Anyone tried that??
The entire immobiliser is potted in epoxy after assembly so it is impossible to change the relays as it is essentially a solid brick of plastic with the components embalmed in it.
The later version of the immobiliser is only 2 channels rather than the 3 channels of the original. My replacement immobiliser lasted about 4 years then had the same fault again. After the second replacement I ditched the Meta alarm entirely and replaced it with a Viper that is a 3 channel immobiliser and hopefully more reliable.
The later version of the immobiliser is only 2 channels rather than the 3 channels of the original. My replacement immobiliser lasted about 4 years then had the same fault again. After the second replacement I ditched the Meta alarm entirely and replaced it with a Viper that is a 3 channel immobiliser and hopefully more reliable.
I have the same problem as said above the immobiliser works on three circuits after speaking to the immobiliser guide at Burghley House he told me how to bypass the starter motor to see if it solve the problem before spending money now I know it's definily the immobiliser eventually I will buy a new immobiliser it's not a difficult job if you know what you're doing but for security reasons I will not put it on the web you'll have to message me dkwiscrazy@gmail.com
About 10 years ago I figured out that the immobiliser was the component causing the starting issues
Once I identified what circuit was causing the problem I stripped the insulation from about an inch of the 2 wires on that circuit, twisted the wires together, soldered them and taped them
I didn't replace the immobiliser at the time, reckoned the remaining circuits would protect it ...... and they do
10 years later it's still working fine
A new immobiliser isn't always needed
Once I identified what circuit was causing the problem I stripped the insulation from about an inch of the 2 wires on that circuit, twisted the wires together, soldered them and taped them
I didn't replace the immobiliser at the time, reckoned the remaining circuits would protect it ...... and they do
10 years later it's still working fine
A new immobiliser isn't always needed
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