Renewing brake lines
Discussion
I've never done this before, although it doesn't appear to be rocket science. But, for those that have done it, could you tell me what copper pipes and unions sizes I need to buy please?
Also, can you recommend a pipe bending & flaring kit? As I have bought other tools in the past multiple times before finding the most effective one. Will a Halfrauds one suffice?
Thanks
Cad
Also, can you recommend a pipe bending & flaring kit? As I have bought other tools in the past multiple times before finding the most effective one. Will a Halfrauds one suffice?
Thanks
Cad
First things first, DON'T use copper it really isn't up to the task. Instead use copper/nickel pipe instead, it is also known as Kunifer or Cupro. A 5m coil of Cupro will cost about £15 whereas copper about £12, for that difference it is not worth using the inferior copper.
The thing you then need to establish is what union type the car has on it, are they DIN (metric) or SAE, I can't help you there other than to provide this pic which explains the difference;
Lastly flaring tools. I've used a few but have settled on using a 'powerhand' flarer. A really small piece of kit, which means you can form flares on the car. Do a google for it, about £40 but well worth it. They sell these either as DIN or SAE so you need to know what your going to be flaring.
The main question you need answering is what type of flares / unions your car has. Making brake pipes isn't difficult though.
The thing you then need to establish is what union type the car has on it, are they DIN (metric) or SAE, I can't help you there other than to provide this pic which explains the difference;
Lastly flaring tools. I've used a few but have settled on using a 'powerhand' flarer. A really small piece of kit, which means you can form flares on the car. Do a google for it, about £40 but well worth it. They sell these either as DIN or SAE so you need to know what your going to be flaring.
The main question you need answering is what type of flares / unions your car has. Making brake pipes isn't difficult though.
Thanks for the quick reply Colin.
I'm doing a body off resto, so doing ALL the pipes. I've had a quick look at the old ones and there are both SAE and DIN on them. There are also a couple of DIN ones that are concave. I assume that flaring tool does both concave and convex?
May I ask what pipe bending tool you use? There appears to be some quite acute bends on the pipes and I'm wondering if any ole pipe bender will do the job, or if a particular one is needed.
Cheers
I'm doing a body off resto, so doing ALL the pipes. I've had a quick look at the old ones and there are both SAE and DIN on them. There are also a couple of DIN ones that are concave. I assume that flaring tool does both concave and convex?
May I ask what pipe bending tool you use? There appears to be some quite acute bends on the pipes and I'm wondering if any ole pipe bender will do the job, or if a particular one is needed.
Cheers
The powerhand tool I use is a DIN one, for SAE you'd need to buy another SAE one. But that tool is so much better than the generic kits you can buy which struggle with the slightly harder cupro pipe. I've had every flare I've done with it come out perfectly first time.
If it were my car I'd look at converting it all to DIN, much simpler as there is just one flare type and a huge parts bin of hoses etc from the likes of VAG / BMW etc. But you'd be better getting advice from a fellow TVR owner on what is what, I cannot help you there.
As for bending, it really isn't too much of an issue if you are renewing the pipes as you can rationalise the pipe runs. Where the OE sharp bends are you can smooth them out a bit. Where you do need to bend to quite a tight radius I've used an aerosol can or even a socket to do this, just carefully and slowly form the pipe round the socket etc. The hardest part is getting any long straight runs straight, unravelling the coil into straight lengths takes time but is easy.
Your best bet is to maybe but two coils of pipe and have a good practice bending, shaping and flaring. If you know one end of a spanner from the other, which you do if you are doing a nut and bolt re-build, you'll quickly and easily pick it up.
Last lot I did were on our dearly beloved MK4 Golf where I replaced all brake pipes and hoses only a few months ago. I did take lots of pics of the process some of which i'll post below to give you an idea what can be achieved by hand bending.
OE and my copy, some quite tight bends there formed round a tin of plusgas and a large socket!
The pipe below had to span across the bulkhead behind the engine on the Golf, it would have been very difficult to measure the length and pre make the pipe off the car, instead I made it up on the car dressing and bending the pipe into poistion and then flaring the ends insitu. With a traditional flaring tool you'd really struggle to do this.
Cut to length with union on (don't forget to put the union on before you make the flare!)
Flaring tool on prior to setting the depth
One end of the die screws in to set the depth of the pipe stub correctly, this is the bit that gets formed to make the actuall flare.
Then you reverse the die so that the actual former goes in along with a bit of the special grease they supply
And there we have it, a perfect flare.
And finished, connected up to the new hose.
Four new brake pipes coming off the ABS pump which go out to each wheel. On the Golf the two main pipes from the master cylinder to the ABS pump were like new. After that photo I did spend a few minutes tidying up by bending and straightning the pipes a bit. All in a straight forward job and if you are doing it when the car is stripped down easier still.
But as I've said, you really need some input from a fellow TVR weird-beard * on unions and flare types. Saying that if the car is in bits you could easily identify and source all the correct ones.
If it were my car I'd look at converting it all to DIN, much simpler as there is just one flare type and a huge parts bin of hoses etc from the likes of VAG / BMW etc. But you'd be better getting advice from a fellow TVR owner on what is what, I cannot help you there.
As for bending, it really isn't too much of an issue if you are renewing the pipes as you can rationalise the pipe runs. Where the OE sharp bends are you can smooth them out a bit. Where you do need to bend to quite a tight radius I've used an aerosol can or even a socket to do this, just carefully and slowly form the pipe round the socket etc. The hardest part is getting any long straight runs straight, unravelling the coil into straight lengths takes time but is easy.
Your best bet is to maybe but two coils of pipe and have a good practice bending, shaping and flaring. If you know one end of a spanner from the other, which you do if you are doing a nut and bolt re-build, you'll quickly and easily pick it up.
Last lot I did were on our dearly beloved MK4 Golf where I replaced all brake pipes and hoses only a few months ago. I did take lots of pics of the process some of which i'll post below to give you an idea what can be achieved by hand bending.
OE and my copy, some quite tight bends there formed round a tin of plusgas and a large socket!
The pipe below had to span across the bulkhead behind the engine on the Golf, it would have been very difficult to measure the length and pre make the pipe off the car, instead I made it up on the car dressing and bending the pipe into poistion and then flaring the ends insitu. With a traditional flaring tool you'd really struggle to do this.
Cut to length with union on (don't forget to put the union on before you make the flare!)
Flaring tool on prior to setting the depth
One end of the die screws in to set the depth of the pipe stub correctly, this is the bit that gets formed to make the actuall flare.
Then you reverse the die so that the actual former goes in along with a bit of the special grease they supply
And there we have it, a perfect flare.
And finished, connected up to the new hose.
Four new brake pipes coming off the ABS pump which go out to each wheel. On the Golf the two main pipes from the master cylinder to the ABS pump were like new. After that photo I did spend a few minutes tidying up by bending and straightning the pipes a bit. All in a straight forward job and if you are doing it when the car is stripped down easier still.
But as I've said, you really need some input from a fellow TVR weird-beard * on unions and flare types. Saying that if the car is in bits you could easily identify and source all the correct ones.
- You may not be an archetypal weird beard real ale drinking TVR owner, legend and folklore has it that there are some out there who drink lager and use a Mach3 now and then.
Edited by colin_p on Wednesday 10th August 16:17
caduceus said:
I've never done this before, although it doesn't appear to be rocket science. But, for those that have done it, could you tell me what copper pipes and unions sizes I need to buy please?
Also, can you recommend a pipe bending & flaring kit? As I have bought other tools in the past multiple times before finding the most effective one. Will a Halfrauds one suffice?
Thanks
Cad
Send an email to Automec. I was in contact with them a few years back and they will do a full brake pipe set for a Chimaera in either copper or copper/nickel.Also, can you recommend a pipe bending & flaring kit? As I have bought other tools in the past multiple times before finding the most effective one. Will a Halfrauds one suffice?
Thanks
Cad
Also they will send you a catalogue which includes pipe, all kinds of fittings and clips. and a full range of specialist tools for making your own.
http://www.automec.co.uk/collections/brake-piping
I would stick with SAE flares never had issues with these and thats an awful lot of flares in over 30 years, I agree with the Kunifer/copper nickel pipe use 
that tool mentioned is a cracking bit of kit I use one myself for on car flaring my SP vice tool is just too big and bulky for these, stick with the TVR SAE single bubble and double flares IMO most bends can be formed with your thumbs but there is a small cheap tool for this purpose also for tighter still e.g http://www.lasertools.co.uk/product/4919
that tool mentioned is a cracking bit of kit I use one myself for on car flaring my SP vice tool is just too big and bulky for these, stick with the TVR SAE single bubble and double flares IMO most bends can be formed with your thumbs but there is a small cheap tool for this purpose also for tighter still e.g http://www.lasertools.co.uk/product/4919Thanks for the replies. I gave Automec a call yesterday and had a conversation with them. They said the lines they provided TVR with in the 90's should still be fine/serviceable today. So I gave the old ones a quick clean up and they do look pretty good.
I'll pressure test them with an airline and blow them out. Other than that, I'll stick them back on the car. Why throw it out if it's working fine... Plus it saves me buying tooling I'm probably never going to use again.
I'll pressure test them with an airline and blow them out. Other than that, I'll stick them back on the car. Why throw it out if it's working fine... Plus it saves me buying tooling I'm probably never going to use again.
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