1953 Jaguar C-Type...it's a bits-a...
Discussion
Well here's one to stir the hornets nest. One must read this very carefully worded advert...
"A chassis part with documentation from XKC 044 and an original engine block was purchased from the Beaulieu Autojumble in 1999..."
An already recognised same chassis number in the U.S., will this end in tears?
http://www.classicmobilia.com/Pages/JaguarCType.as...
"A chassis part with documentation from XKC 044 and an original engine block was purchased from the Beaulieu Autojumble in 1999..."
An already recognised same chassis number in the U.S., will this end in tears?
http://www.classicmobilia.com/Pages/JaguarCType.as...
v8250 said:
Well here's one to stir the hornets nest. One must read this very carefully worded advert...
"A chassis part with documentation from XKC 044 and an original engine block was purchased from the Beaulieu Autojumble in 1999..."
An already recognised same chassis number in the U.S., will this end in tears?
http://www.classicmobilia.com/Pages/JaguarCType.as...
I hope so!"A chassis part with documentation from XKC 044 and an original engine block was purchased from the Beaulieu Autojumble in 1999..."
An already recognised same chassis number in the U.S., will this end in tears?
http://www.classicmobilia.com/Pages/JaguarCType.as...
"...This very special C-TYPE Jaguar, which has been restored and built with original Jaguar C-TYPE engine and chassis parts. Using chassis number XKC 044, specialists, Classic Garage in Diessen built up the car in Germany during the years 2000 - 2005.
A chassis part with documentation from XKC 044 and an original engine block was purchased from the Beaulieu Autojumble in 1999.
The engine has an engine number E1049 is claimed to be from XKC 050...."
I'm sure lowdrag has an opinion worth reading, but making a car around a piece of chassis does not make it original. In my opinion, if the "other" 044 has more original parts, and a continuous history then it is 044. This is a replica, a bitsa with some original parts and many newly fabricated parts.
".....The car has Historic Technical Passport, confirming correct specifications and all official documentation confirms the vehicle identity as XKC 044. With FIA papers and participation in several classic car races, this car is a unique opportunity...."
There's the other problem. The FIA are willing to recognise it as a genuine, so others will. lawyers will do well from this, but nobody else will.
A chassis part with documentation from XKC 044 and an original engine block was purchased from the Beaulieu Autojumble in 1999.
The engine has an engine number E1049 is claimed to be from XKC 050...."
I'm sure lowdrag has an opinion worth reading, but making a car around a piece of chassis does not make it original. In my opinion, if the "other" 044 has more original parts, and a continuous history then it is 044. This is a replica, a bitsa with some original parts and many newly fabricated parts.
".....The car has Historic Technical Passport, confirming correct specifications and all official documentation confirms the vehicle identity as XKC 044. With FIA papers and participation in several classic car races, this car is a unique opportunity...."
There's the other problem. The FIA are willing to recognise it as a genuine, so others will. lawyers will do well from this, but nobody else will.
This one looks to be a nice toolroom replica but I don't understand why the builders have chosen XKC044 identity if the real XKC050 block was inside ! The data plate is a fake who reproduce the reals numbers of XKC044. The owner of the real one is an australian but the car is kept in USA.
Please remove all the replicas pictures on Conventry Racers ! It's a little bit confusing.
http://www.coventryracers.com/cars/detail/?car=XKC...
Please remove all the replicas pictures on Conventry Racers ! It's a little bit confusing.
http://www.coventryracers.com/cars/detail/?car=XKC...
Edited by d.wilde on Tuesday 16th August 20:32
d.wilde said:
This one looks to be a nice toolroom replica but I don't understand why the builders have chosen XKC044 identity if the real XKC050 block was inside ! The data plate is a fake who reproduce the reals numbers of XKC044. The owner of the real one is an australian but the car is kept in USA.
Please remove all the replicas pictures on Conventry Racers ! It's a little bit confusing.
http://www.coventryracers.com/cars/detail/?car=XKC...
I did wonder if this bits-a was on the listing. There are some choice comments from others...Please remove all the replicas pictures on Conventry Racers ! It's a little bit confusing.
http://www.coventryracers.com/cars/detail/?car=XKC...
Edited by d.wilde on Tuesday 16th August 20:32
I quote:-
On 2nd April 2011 an "evocation" or "parallel car" of XKC o44 was offered for auction by Coys at Techno Classica, Essen, bearing chassis number XKC 044 and with German historic papers and an FIA pass from 2005/6, with an estimate of €115,000 to €130,000. Quoting from Coys auction catalogue, "according to the previous owner who commissioned the assembly of the car, he purchased a chassis and an original 3.4 engine block from the Beaulieu Autojumble in 1999. To match the chassis with the engine4, the car has then been given the chassis number XKC 044 [which may be read to imply a suggestion that this car has the original engine from the original XKC 044]... A new aluminium body was commissioned and the work carried out by Shape Craft engineering on an original C-type jig [sic; the German text mentions an original wooden former, "eine originale C-type holtzform"]. The rebuild and restoration was carried out by German specialists Classic Garage of Diessen, Bavaria from 2000 to 2005..." Coys make it clear that it was just one example of a C-type copy, and not an original car but it was"Not to be confused with lesser offerings"(Coys auction catalogue, cited on Coventry racers).
The real XKC 044 resides happily in New Zealand.
The advert is to say the least misleading, and makes reference to "original engine and chassis".
On 2nd April 2011 an "evocation" or "parallel car" of XKC o44 was offered for auction by Coys at Techno Classica, Essen, bearing chassis number XKC 044 and with German historic papers and an FIA pass from 2005/6, with an estimate of €115,000 to €130,000. Quoting from Coys auction catalogue, "according to the previous owner who commissioned the assembly of the car, he purchased a chassis and an original 3.4 engine block from the Beaulieu Autojumble in 1999. To match the chassis with the engine4, the car has then been given the chassis number XKC 044 [which may be read to imply a suggestion that this car has the original engine from the original XKC 044]... A new aluminium body was commissioned and the work carried out by Shape Craft engineering on an original C-type jig [sic; the German text mentions an original wooden former, "eine originale C-type holtzform"]. The rebuild and restoration was carried out by German specialists Classic Garage of Diessen, Bavaria from 2000 to 2005..." Coys make it clear that it was just one example of a C-type copy, and not an original car but it was"Not to be confused with lesser offerings"(Coys auction catalogue, cited on Coventry racers).
The real XKC 044 resides happily in New Zealand.
The advert is to say the least misleading, and makes reference to "original engine and chassis".
IMO it would be a poor overpriced KIT CAR, having owned kit cars most of my life, it surpises me that a genuine 'JAG FAN' would lower themselves to buying a overpriced kitcar 
I've attended 100's of classic shows & heard many supposed jagfans slagging off various kits including Bugatti & Bentley replicas - and various Italian Ferrari/Lambo replicas too.
At the end of the day tho' it's worth what someone is prepared to pay for it - me I'd prefer a Genuine Kitcar
I've attended 100's of classic shows & heard many supposed jagfans slagging off various kits including Bugatti & Bentley replicas - and various Italian Ferrari/Lambo replicas too.
At the end of the day tho' it's worth what someone is prepared to pay for it - me I'd prefer a Genuine Kitcar
RichB said:
I guess you could email the vendors and ask what their price expectations are?
Well, inquisitiveness got the better of me...I spoke with the vendor on Thursday. The car's based in Oslo and the owner has an asking price of Euro500,000[!] I kept quiet thinking the owner's living on a completely different planet. This is a well known replica built from dubious parts between 2000-2005, the body coming from Shapecraft who build the Proteus bodies...and other excellent work...and it's worth no more than any other Proteus car. As always, there a good number number of C-Type reps readily available http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/list/22/c+type/?pag... I'll leave you to chew over how much you think it's worth...
The whole world of classic racing is changing, and to my mind not for the better. With the value of real cars going through the stratosphere we are going to be seeing more and more replicas and not real cars. Just like a Rembrandt, the real ones will be locked in bank vaults never to be seen in public. The Revival had a D-type race with a lot of cars with no provenance, and this year's Le Mans Classic featured a Jaguar only race which was full of replica race cars. The point here is, will the public in general still pay out substantial money to watch these replicas? It seems so. Moreover, buying this iffy car will, at a moderate price by today's standards, give access to rubbing shoulders with the high and mighty. I am rather surprised not to have seen my old C-type out and about more. Remember that it featured at both a Revival and a Festival of Speed. I don't know if the 1956-winning D-type sold at Monterey last weekend, but they were talking about £15 million for the car. That's a serious investment by anyone's standard.
ETA Yes it did, at 21.8 million dollars. Now would you race it?
ETA Yes it did, at 21.8 million dollars. Now would you race it?
Edited by lowdrag on Monday 22 August 04:42
"-There's the other problem. The FIA are willing to recognise it as a genuine, so others will. lawyers will do well from this, but nobody else will.-"
The FIA passport doesn't have anything to do with whether it's genuine, just that it meets the specification. For example, you can build any MK1 Cortina 2 door to Lotus FIA papers & get a passport. It doesn't have to be a Lotus.
The FIA passport doesn't have anything to do with whether it's genuine, just that it meets the specification. For example, you can build any MK1 Cortina 2 door to Lotus FIA papers & get a passport. It doesn't have to be a Lotus.
Surely Jaguar Heritage should get involved. In 50 years time (maybe a lot less) the current extensive knowledge will be diluted and the classic car scene will be like the art world, with forgeries galore and nobody really knowing what is genuine and what is fake. I've heard that Mercedes crush fakes. Jaguar should do the same.
MichaelDelaney said:
I've heard that Mercedes crush fakes. Jaguar should do the same.
No, that's not a good idea. But in the internet age, you can pretty quickly find out/expose a fake. This was why I asked about the value of this car in relation to a proper one with ironclad provenance. Of course the clever dicks made the usual smartarse comments that are of use to nobody - but if we assume a genuine car is 2 million quid and this one is £500'000 because buyers aren't foiled by waffle........at the end of the day, it's still a C Type Jaguar, just a fairly iffy one. Gassing Station | Classic Cars and Yesterday's Heroes | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff