Pricing a yacht
Discussion
Just returned from Malta on holiday, where we chartered a Beneteau Cyclades 50.5 for the day.
Decided to take a look at used prices and i'm curious how do you price a yacht? Better still, how do you buy one and not get a lemon?
Are there such things as service records? How long do sails, rigging etc last? Do you get a professional to inspect the yacht and provide a realistic price?
Decided to take a look at used prices and i'm curious how do you price a yacht? Better still, how do you buy one and not get a lemon?
Are there such things as service records? How long do sails, rigging etc last? Do you get a professional to inspect the yacht and provide a realistic price?
Rigging lasts 10 years. Sails...depends how much they are used and how well they are cared for (both in terms of when used and also servicing/storage etc).
Do not underestimate the running costs (marina/mooring fees, antifouling, wear and tear) and boats are not like cars. You clean a cherished car, stick it in the garage and it looks the same two months later. Your previously detailed boat will take 10 times as long to clean, using eye wateringly expensive cleaning products, and when you come back to it the wood will be green, the canvas will be covered in bird s
te, and some tool will have put a nice scrape/mark up the side of it.
Do not underestimate the running costs (marina/mooring fees, antifouling, wear and tear) and boats are not like cars. You clean a cherished car, stick it in the garage and it looks the same two months later. Your previously detailed boat will take 10 times as long to clean, using eye wateringly expensive cleaning products, and when you come back to it the wood will be green, the canvas will be covered in bird s
te, and some tool will have put a nice scrape/mark up the side of it.trickywoo said:
Professional survey is a must.
This.Mate got a Beneteau 1st 45 earlier this year (previously owned a Dufour 36 and a Contessa 32). Lovely boat. His is about 6 years old, and is in very good nick with all the kit you'd need for long distance. Came with reasonable sails (good enough for cruising with for a good few years to come), but now has a full set of racing sails too (a significant additional cost!).
We did the Cherbourg race in her at the weekend... trucks along at 9-10knts in 15knts of breeze. Nice and stable, and pretty dry.
Ayahuasca said:
Chris Stott said:
We did the Cherbourg race in her at the weekend...
JOG?Been sailing with my mate for 15 years (Cowes week, Round the Island, Nationals, weekend runs to France etc), but this was my 1st 'off shore' race. Got a few more planned before doing the Fastnet next year. Ultimate aim is to do either an ARC or RORC Tranatlantic in a couple of years time.
Chris Stott said:
Ayahuasca said:
Chris Stott said:
We did the Cherbourg race in her at the weekend...
JOG?Been sailing with my mate for 15 years (Cowes week, Round the Island, Nationals, weekend runs to France etc), but this was my 1st 'off shore' race. Got a few more planned before doing the Fastnet next year. Ultimate aim is to do either an ARC or RORC Tranatlantic in a couple of years time.
Ayahuasca said:
Good stuff. Cherbourg was my first offshore race too. Since done four Fastnets.
Cherbourg was great fun except I was seasick for the 1st time ever - I think a combination of low cloud (when it got dark there was no horizon for reference) and a lumpy wind over tide sea. Didn't get it on the way back on Sunday, but hoping it's a one off as I really don't want to feel like that for 3 days on the Fastnet 
Chris Stott said:
Ayahuasca said:
Good stuff. Cherbourg was my first offshore race too. Since done four Fastnets.
Cherbourg was great fun except I was seasick for the 1st time ever - I think a combination of low cloud (when it got dark there was no horizon for reference) and a lumpy wind over tide sea. Didn't get it on the way back on Sunday, but hoping it's a one off as I really don't want to feel like that for 3 days on the Fastnet Horizon? Ha, for hours on end at night you cannot see anything, anything at all. On one Fastnet, approaching the rock at night we were on a screaming broad reach in some pretty big breaking seas, I was on main, the helm couldn't see a thing due to a contact lens situation, and all I could see was the illuminated electronic compass above the companionway. Nothing else but blackness. Like being on a roller coaster with a bag over your head. I just focused on the numbers and called out 'Port!' or 'Starboard!' whenever our course deviated by more than 20 degrees either way, and we all hung on... there were 300 odd boats converging on the same point but we saw none of them...wild ride.
Ayahuasca said:
LOL been there, done that.. stugeron and wrist bands are your friends. And sick bags. Also, you cannot be seasick if you are lying down with your eyes closed.
Horizon? Ha, for hours on end at night you cannot see anything, anything at all. On one Fastnet, approaching the rock at night we were on a screaming broad reach in some pretty big breaking seas, I was on main, the helm couldn't see a thing due to a contact lens situation, and all I could see was the illuminated electronic compass above the companionway. Nothing else but blackness. Like being on a roller coaster with a bag over your head. I just focused on the numbers and called out 'Port!' or 'Starboard!' whenever our course deviated by more than 20 degrees either way, and we all hung on... there were 300 odd boats converging on the same point but we saw none of them...wild ride.
Sounds fun! I wasn't sick, just felt nauseous for 4 or 5 hours, and as you say, goes away when you lie down... But on such a short race I was t heading below and missing anything! Horizon? Ha, for hours on end at night you cannot see anything, anything at all. On one Fastnet, approaching the rock at night we were on a screaming broad reach in some pretty big breaking seas, I was on main, the helm couldn't see a thing due to a contact lens situation, and all I could see was the illuminated electronic compass above the companionway. Nothing else but blackness. Like being on a roller coaster with a bag over your head. I just focused on the numbers and called out 'Port!' or 'Starboard!' whenever our course deviated by more than 20 degrees either way, and we all hung on... there were 300 odd boats converging on the same point but we saw none of them...wild ride.
I'm also the main trimmer
Just been doing a quick idle calculation for a year or twos time when I'm thinking of getting another tub to blat around the Solent and a bit of fine weather coastal stuff upsetting the fist waving rag and stick admirals with vast displacement wash as I slow down for them 
So, a simple little boat with an f-off motor, a planing boat with beds, water, heat and somewhere to store beer, wine and a bit of grub. Something like a lightly used Bayliner 285, "relatively cheap" but functional for what the missus and I would like.
So, let's buy one. Hmmm, they have gone up, used to get a fairly new one for £60k or so. Ok, let's not deplete our savings too much, so so throw in a large chunk of wedge, and borrow about £25k at 3.4% APR off Tesco (stuff expensive marine mortgages), and I kind of own a boat with the Tesco bank shareholders. I have no car loans so I can go for a bit of finance at £300 a month to get a newer one with less maintenance / refurb / upgrades / hassle - says the "bloke thinking"... actually, just getting a shinier and prettier one if truth be told (and on a single, a bloody bow thruster is mandatory for me after the last single I had and the pontoon winds we get here). And I still have that £25k in the bank for when it really breaks smokily in a few years time.
And yes, let"s put it right on my doorstep at Port Solent and I might actually get to use the bugger more than 5 days a year. Certainly sir, that will be £400 quid a month plus change to tie it to a lump of wood... plus electricity... So now I am into £700+ a month regular outgoings and I haven't put any fuel in it to run a V8 350Mag at marina fuel prices.
Add on 4-500 quid a year for insurance, £2.5k for a lift out or three a year with a jet wash and annual winter engine, leg and anode services, anti foul, safety gear updating etc and before anything goes wrong with the bloody money pit, after throwing £60k at it initially, I am into somewhere near another grand every month! For a 28foot boat... still before I put any fuel in it!
This is really tough to justify, spending a grand a month on "a rapidly depreciating asset" (yawn) which will no doubt over time cost a lot more than the budget above (fairly regular stuff like bellows, batteries, water heaters, risers, pumps - before we get to overhauls etc) I would never plan to spend that on a car, and I would use that pretty much every bloody day!
I have no idea where my radio and ICC certs are either after house moves, so I guess I will need to redo some courses to get insurance too... And get the missus along too in case I fall over the side one day... It goes on... and on...
The moral is, the one off cost of the boat at £85k is relatively cheap to buy. But the ongoing TCO is ridiculous, so much so it is not even worth going for something older and cheaper to save the finance, I will only spend it on fixing big stuff and sea start / RNLI thank yous over the years.
So, think again Kev - I could bareboat charter a similar boat for £600 a day plus fuel. And I don't have to pack away ste, hose the thing down and refit covers when I get back, or polish it... Etc. There is some truth in the saying "if it flies, floats or fornicates, rent it by the hour".
Ok. Time for a rethink. how much is a little Cessna flying washing machine then
So, a simple little boat with an f-off motor, a planing boat with beds, water, heat and somewhere to store beer, wine and a bit of grub. Something like a lightly used Bayliner 285, "relatively cheap" but functional for what the missus and I would like.
So, let's buy one. Hmmm, they have gone up, used to get a fairly new one for £60k or so. Ok, let's not deplete our savings too much, so so throw in a large chunk of wedge, and borrow about £25k at 3.4% APR off Tesco (stuff expensive marine mortgages), and I kind of own a boat with the Tesco bank shareholders. I have no car loans so I can go for a bit of finance at £300 a month to get a newer one with less maintenance / refurb / upgrades / hassle - says the "bloke thinking"... actually, just getting a shinier and prettier one if truth be told (and on a single, a bloody bow thruster is mandatory for me after the last single I had and the pontoon winds we get here). And I still have that £25k in the bank for when it really breaks smokily in a few years time.
And yes, let"s put it right on my doorstep at Port Solent and I might actually get to use the bugger more than 5 days a year. Certainly sir, that will be £400 quid a month plus change to tie it to a lump of wood... plus electricity... So now I am into £700+ a month regular outgoings and I haven't put any fuel in it to run a V8 350Mag at marina fuel prices.
Add on 4-500 quid a year for insurance, £2.5k for a lift out or three a year with a jet wash and annual winter engine, leg and anode services, anti foul, safety gear updating etc and before anything goes wrong with the bloody money pit, after throwing £60k at it initially, I am into somewhere near another grand every month! For a 28foot boat... still before I put any fuel in it!
This is really tough to justify, spending a grand a month on "a rapidly depreciating asset" (yawn) which will no doubt over time cost a lot more than the budget above (fairly regular stuff like bellows, batteries, water heaters, risers, pumps - before we get to overhauls etc) I would never plan to spend that on a car, and I would use that pretty much every bloody day!
I have no idea where my radio and ICC certs are either after house moves, so I guess I will need to redo some courses to get insurance too... And get the missus along too in case I fall over the side one day... It goes on... and on...
The moral is, the one off cost of the boat at £85k is relatively cheap to buy. But the ongoing TCO is ridiculous, so much so it is not even worth going for something older and cheaper to save the finance, I will only spend it on fixing big stuff and sea start / RNLI thank yous over the years.
So, think again Kev - I could bareboat charter a similar boat for £600 a day plus fuel. And I don't have to pack away s
te, hose the thing down and refit covers when I get back, or polish it... Etc. There is some truth in the saying "if it flies, floats or fornicates, rent it by the hour".Ok. Time for a rethink. how much is a little Cessna flying washing machine then
Edited by SeeFive on Tuesday 6th September 03:17
SeeFive said:
Valid reasons for not buying!
It might be worth looking into the boat "clubs" - this one has a few motorboats based in Hamble so not too far away from you I presume as you mentioned Port Solent - https://www.purelatitude.comYou can make it as cheap or as expensive as you wish - same with cars. If you own a £35k daily driver, you're probably dropping circa £5k PA depreciation
Our boat (exc marina fees) Running costs so far this year - fuel (we typically use £50 for a day out on the water - Yamaha 150) and the normal getting started stuff - radio / lifejackets etc
I'm sure if we purchased a 1999 Fairline Targa 43 and used it heavily - i'd be singing a different tune
Our boat (exc marina fees) Running costs so far this year - fuel (we typically use £50 for a day out on the water - Yamaha 150) and the normal getting started stuff - radio / lifejackets etc
I'm sure if we purchased a 1999 Fairline Targa 43 and used it heavily - i'd be singing a different tune
Edited by Candellara on Tuesday 6th September 10:23
Candellara said:
You can make it as cheap or as expensive as you wish - same with cars.
Our boat (exc marina fees) Running costs so far this year - fuel (we typically use £50 for a day out on the water - Yamaha 150) and the normal getting started stuff - radio / lifejackets etc
I'm sure if we purchased a 1999 Fairline Targa 43 and used it heavily - i'd be singing a different tune
Absolutely correct. When setting sights, I had looked at twin engined diesels on the web, at the low end, a Binliner 305 or even up to 360 Statesman fly for proper year round opportunities. Snag being, age of boat for initial budget I wish to spend, highly likely increased maintenance costs with age, double up on engine maintain costs and fuel etc... So set course for something a little smaller, arguably less quality in the Bayliner range, harder to handle at close quarters in the wind but still suitable for the two of us and maybe the occasional guests / boys day out. Our boat (exc marina fees) Running costs so far this year - fuel (we typically use £50 for a day out on the water - Yamaha 150) and the normal getting started stuff - radio / lifejackets etc
I'm sure if we purchased a 1999 Fairline Targa 43 and used it heavily - i'd be singing a different tune
Fuel costs do not bother me at all - those are variable costs. The essential costs of mooring, maint, safety etc are the ones that hurt for a small boat like this - marina fees being the largest fixed cost annually, but the convenience of untying the ropes and go versus drag it on the back of a suitable car to a slipway and go, and dozing off on the return car journey etc, been there done that! Not for me again.
So, as you say, you pay your money when you take your choice. Just highlighting what I see as the likely fixed cost money for my low end choice. Scary.
The boat share / membership style thing in Hamble looks quite good. I almost had a sniff at a an advertised £27.5k 1/8 share on a nice Squadron 52 down in Majorca for the up front cost and an estimated £5-6k a year. Kind of impulsive "do it now" thing rather than wait. At least the weather should be ok, but sharing a boat with 8 others... Never done anything like it before so a lot to learn about the potential issues - not just the financial ones
http://www.boatshop24.co.uk/offshore-cruisers/fair...
Anyway, better get back to work and try to find the next big deal that will take all my problems away
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