987 wet handling
Discussion
Just how spiky should these be in the wet? I've only had mine a week and driving back from work tonight is the first time the roads have been properly wet to get a feel for it.
A fairly large roundabout and a second gear corner had the back end stepping out very suddenly. Each time I was looking to see at what point it would start to go a bit light and just start to lose grip but even consciously doing that it happened in an instant, to the point that the PSM sorted it out before I could react. Granted being mid-engined RWD isn't going to be the same as front-engined RWD but at that speed it was nothing that would have caused my old M5 or the Clio Trophy to be upset so much. No hint of anything then the back end wanting to overtake the front.
I know with experience that e46 3 series are very sensitive with different tyres front to rear but can't find a huge amount suggesting these are the same? Falken on each axle so not the absolute best but not bad, FK510 on the front and FK453 on the rear. All fairly new. Not sure when the car last had its alignment checked so that'll no doubt be worth getting done regardless.
It was the suddenness of it that was unnerving. FWIW the M5 and Clio had matching premium tyres all round, they always give you some warning when you're at the limit, with the exception of low-speed understeer in the M5.
Or are these really just that spiky due to being mid-engined? Not a hint if understeer though.
A fairly large roundabout and a second gear corner had the back end stepping out very suddenly. Each time I was looking to see at what point it would start to go a bit light and just start to lose grip but even consciously doing that it happened in an instant, to the point that the PSM sorted it out before I could react. Granted being mid-engined RWD isn't going to be the same as front-engined RWD but at that speed it was nothing that would have caused my old M5 or the Clio Trophy to be upset so much. No hint of anything then the back end wanting to overtake the front.
I know with experience that e46 3 series are very sensitive with different tyres front to rear but can't find a huge amount suggesting these are the same? Falken on each axle so not the absolute best but not bad, FK510 on the front and FK453 on the rear. All fairly new. Not sure when the car last had its alignment checked so that'll no doubt be worth getting done regardless.
It was the suddenness of it that was unnerving. FWIW the M5 and Clio had matching premium tyres all round, they always give you some warning when you're at the limit, with the exception of low-speed understeer in the M5.
Or are these really just that spiky due to being mid-engined? Not a hint if understeer though.
Patrick Bateman said:
Falken on each axle so not the absolute best but not bad, FK510 on the front and FK453 on the rear. All fairly new. Not sure when the car last had its alignment checked so that'll no doubt be worth getting done regardless.
It was the suddenness of it that was unnerving. FWIW the M5 and Clio had matching premium tyres all round, they always give you some warning when you're at the limit, with the exception of low-speed understeer in the M5.
There's your starting point. 453s were never that good, 510 is the latest iteration so R&D are probably 10 years apart.It was the suddenness of it that was unnerving. FWIW the M5 and Clio had matching premium tyres all round, they always give you some warning when you're at the limit, with the exception of low-speed understeer in the M5.
If in warranty, your tyre options are probably very limited - if out of warranty, the golden boy at the moment is the Michelin PS4.
Rear tyre sizes with the 18" wheels (265 40) are quite awkward for choice, certainly when you want options to match the front (235 40).
As such, the latest efforts from Michelin and Goodyear aren't available in the rear size but Super Sports are still available in that size and take after their name. (but not available for the fronts)
First port of call then will be to get the alignment done and I'll take it from there. In the week that I've been driving it I had gone off the idea of getting 17's cmoose as I didn't have any issues with the 18's until tonight. If it's still this twitchy after an alignment and the 17's are likely to be more predictable then I may well have to look a bit more seriously. I'm all for sharp handling but communication is a must!
As such, the latest efforts from Michelin and Goodyear aren't available in the rear size but Super Sports are still available in that size and take after their name. (but not available for the fronts)
First port of call then will be to get the alignment done and I'll take it from there. In the week that I've been driving it I had gone off the idea of getting 17's cmoose as I didn't have any issues with the 18's until tonight. If it's still this twitchy after an alignment and the 17's are likely to be more predictable then I may well have to look a bit more seriously. I'm all for sharp handling but communication is a must!
Here we go again Mr Moose - is this any clearer?
If in warranty, your tyre options are probably very limited - if out of warranty, the golden boy at the moment is the Michelin PS4.OP didn't mention a budget. He also didn't mention wheel size. But knock yourself out Mr Moose by arguing about something.
Orangecurry said:
Patrick Bateman said:
Falken on each axle so not the absolute best but not bad, FK510 on the front and FK453 on the rear. All fairly new. Not sure when the car last had its alignment checked so that'll no doubt be worth getting done regardless.
It was the suddenness of it that was unnerving. FWIW the M5 and Clio had matching premium tyres all round, they always give you some warning when you're at the limit, with the exception of low-speed understeer in the M5.
There's your starting point. 453s were never that good, 510 is the latest iteration so R&D are probably 10 years apart.It was the suddenness of it that was unnerving. FWIW the M5 and Clio had matching premium tyres all round, they always give you some warning when you're at the limit, with the exception of low-speed understeer in the M5.
If in warranty, your tyre options are probably very limited - if out of warranty, the golden boy at the moment is the Michelin PS4.
Patrick Bateman said:
Orangecurry said:
OP didn't mention a budget. He also didn't mention wheel size. But knock yourself out Mr Moose by arguing about something.
I've already spoken to him about this before.A quick glace at the interweb suggests that the Falken 453 you have on the rear could be V rated?
(edited for clarity)
The 510 is Y rated?
Although you say they are fairly new, have you actually looked at the datestamps?
If no PS4 available, and wet weather handling is important, I'd go PS2 rather than PSS.
(edited for clarity)
The 510 is Y rated?
Although you say they are fairly new, have you actually looked at the datestamps?
If no PS4 available, and wet weather handling is important, I'd go PS2 rather than PSS.
Edited by Orangecurry on Saturday 10th September 00:11
Just my personal opinion.
For me, although very old, the PS2 was designed in a non-compromise era. It's one of those very very rare tyres that
a) has stood the test of time
b) was biased towards performance, not environmental concerns and decibel limits.
But if you can't get PSS in 235/40, then we can pontificate until the huskies thaw out - it doesn't help you.
For me, although very old, the PS2 was designed in a non-compromise era. It's one of those very very rare tyres that
a) has stood the test of time
b) was biased towards performance, not environmental concerns and decibel limits.
But if you can't get PSS in 235/40, then we can pontificate until the huskies thaw out - it doesn't help you.
Years ago I went from a 205 GTI 1.6 to a Mk1 MX5. The first time I went out onto a damp greasy road with a slight camber I the back stepped out.
You need to learn the break points, but need to ensure your 987 is set-up correctly to start. Don't skimp on getting the tyres and alignment sorted.
I'd suggest:
Tyres
Change your tyres to one make on all 4 wheels. It's likely you've got a difference in grip between the front and back axles at present which is breaking traction sooner than it should.
Alignment
Make sure the wheels are aligned as this can cause handling issues. Do it when you change to the same tyres.
Experience
Get someone with experience of 987 to ensure it's right. Then spend some time getting used to the handling, maybe book a handling day.
You need to learn the break points, but need to ensure your 987 is set-up correctly to start. Don't skimp on getting the tyres and alignment sorted.
I'd suggest:
Tyres
Change your tyres to one make on all 4 wheels. It's likely you've got a difference in grip between the front and back axles at present which is breaking traction sooner than it should.
Alignment
Make sure the wheels are aligned as this can cause handling issues. Do it when you change to the same tyres.
Experience
Get someone with experience of 987 to ensure it's right. Then spend some time getting used to the handling, maybe book a handling day.
My Cayman S is on 18"s and has always been on PS2s. Wet handling on-road has almost always been very predictable and confidence inspiring, and yet as cmoose has also found, on a wet trackday it can feel extremely unnerving and as if the car is always just about to get away from you unless you are super-super-smooth. Well that has been my experience at Oulton and at Silverstone.
Odd really, as on the road it's really good in the wet I think, on the PS2s.
Odd really, as on the road it's really good in the wet I think, on the PS2s.
The car shouldn't suddenly lose traction in the wet like that, not at all. 17's, 19's etc, shouldn't make a difference. If the guy is not driving like a lunatic, good tires with correct geo shouldn't do this, end of, or it wouldn't be rated as such a great handling sport car.
Buy a tire tread gauge off ebay for £10. Check tire wear is as expected on all tires. If tires are under 4mm replace and get something good like PS2 or SS. Treat it to a matching set of 4, I bet you the difference would be night and day. If showing unexpected wear patterns get the geo done.
Loads of Boxsters came on 19's, do they all have unpredictable wet handling? Mine didn't for the 4 years I owned it but then I kept it on PS2s and checked the geo periodically, I didn't hang around either.
Buy a tire tread gauge off ebay for £10. Check tire wear is as expected on all tires. If tires are under 4mm replace and get something good like PS2 or SS. Treat it to a matching set of 4, I bet you the difference would be night and day. If showing unexpected wear patterns get the geo done.
Loads of Boxsters came on 19's, do they all have unpredictable wet handling? Mine didn't for the 4 years I owned it but then I kept it on PS2s and checked the geo periodically, I didn't hang around either.
Patrick Bateman said:
Just how spiky should these be in the wet? I've only had mine a week and driving back from work tonight is the first time the roads have been properly wet to get a feel for it.
A fairly large roundabout and a second gear corner had the back end stepping out very suddenly.
If it had not rained for a while then the road may have had "summer ice". The sudden rain brings out all the accumulated oil/sA fairly large roundabout and a second gear corner had the back end stepping out very suddenly.
t out of the road, making it far more slippery than just "normal" continuous wet weather. Takes a few hours of rain for the road to get clean.It would be good to see if you lost traction or lateral grip. Were you on the throttle when the rear end lost adhesion ? I presume so as they normally understeer from a lat grip point of view.
jakesmith said:
The car shouldn't suddenly lose traction in the wet like that, not at all. 17's, 19's etc, shouldn't make a difference. If the guy is not driving like a lunatic, good tires with correct geo shouldn't do this, end of, or it wouldn't be rated as such a great handling sport car.
Buy a tire tread gauge off ebay for £10. Check tire wear is as expected on all tires. If tires are under 4mm replace and get something good like PS2 or SS. Treat it to a matching set of 4, I bet you the difference would be night and day. If showing unexpected wear patterns get the geo done.
Loads of Boxsters came on 19's, do they all have unpredictable wet handling? Mine didn't for the 4 years I owned it but then I kept it on PS2s and checked the geo periodically, I didn't hang around either.
I've already checked the depths, the fronts are as new, near enough 8mm and the rears around 6.5mm+. It hasn't done many miles since the tyres were changed.Buy a tire tread gauge off ebay for £10. Check tire wear is as expected on all tires. If tires are under 4mm replace and get something good like PS2 or SS. Treat it to a matching set of 4, I bet you the difference would be night and day. If showing unexpected wear patterns get the geo done.
Loads of Boxsters came on 19's, do they all have unpredictable wet handling? Mine didn't for the 4 years I owned it but then I kept it on PS2s and checked the geo periodically, I didn't hang around either.
nickfrog said:
If it had not rained for a while then the road may have had "summer ice". The sudden rain brings out all the accumulated oil/st out of the road, making it far more slippery than just "normal" continuous wet weather. Takes a few hours of rain for the road to get clean.
It would be good to see if you lost traction or lateral grip. Were you on the throttle when the rear end lost adhesion ? I presume so as they normally understeer from a lat grip point of view.
It had been pissing down for hours. I was on the throttle but wasn't booting it. Round the same roundabout in wet conditions doing the same in the M5 and you'd get some understeer followed by oversteer, but you knew they were coming. Likewise the Clio, minus the oversteer.t out of the road, making it far more slippery than just "normal" continuous wet weather. Takes a few hours of rain for the road to get clean.It would be good to see if you lost traction or lateral grip. Were you on the throttle when the rear end lost adhesion ? I presume so as they normally understeer from a lat grip point of view.
Edited by Patrick Bateman on Sunday 11th September 15:03
This is a different car with different setup. By all means, have the geo checked. It can be set up for tire wear or for handling, both within Porsche supplied figures.
But also get to a driving school that includes wet conditions (or to some parking lot on a wet weekend) and practice so you know what is normal and where the limits are. Where you should be accelerating and where you shouldn't. When to expect breakaway.
But also get to a driving school that includes wet conditions (or to some parking lot on a wet weekend) and practice so you know what is normal and where the limits are. Where you should be accelerating and where you shouldn't. When to expect breakaway.
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