73RS vs 991RS vs GT4
Discussion
Out in all 3 for first time today.
There is no contest, for me at least. The 991RS may be called a stripped out, raw track car, and the GT4 may be described as Porsche returning to making a true driver's car, manual etc. But, unsurprisingly, the new cars are (a) enormous and (b) have absolutely no steering feel whatsoever, in comparison of course. They are much quicker, much easier to drive fast on twisty roads. But the limits are so high you can drive them almost with your eyes closed. The 73RS by contrast is alive, always communicating, you can use two fingers to steer it if you need to, so light, delicate, full of feedback, and you are always looking 5-10 seconds down the road. How should I take this corner, what about my braking, how to manage weight transfer, etc etc. Then there is the old school manual box, you are aware you are driving a mechanical thing, don't rush 2nd to 3rd changes, execute heel and toe shifts time after time, feel the car leaning and rolling, more power than grip, and the air cooled noise. My beard has started to grow
Next week, weather permitting, 73RS vs Carrera GT.
There is no contest, for me at least. The 991RS may be called a stripped out, raw track car, and the GT4 may be described as Porsche returning to making a true driver's car, manual etc. But, unsurprisingly, the new cars are (a) enormous and (b) have absolutely no steering feel whatsoever, in comparison of course. They are much quicker, much easier to drive fast on twisty roads. But the limits are so high you can drive them almost with your eyes closed. The 73RS by contrast is alive, always communicating, you can use two fingers to steer it if you need to, so light, delicate, full of feedback, and you are always looking 5-10 seconds down the road. How should I take this corner, what about my braking, how to manage weight transfer, etc etc. Then there is the old school manual box, you are aware you are driving a mechanical thing, don't rush 2nd to 3rd changes, execute heel and toe shifts time after time, feel the car leaning and rolling, more power than grip, and the air cooled noise. My beard has started to grow
Next week, weather permitting, 73RS vs Carrera GT.
I agree with your sentiment. Modern road going GT are designed to deploy huge amounts of power as effectively as possible by utilising electronic control systems. There is no longer a primary place for the driver in the extraction of performance as that potential has passed the driver of average ability by some margin. Older cars were built to ultilise the driver as the only means to extract performance ensuring that he or she was provided with as much information through the chasis as possible. It is a stark reminder of how things have changed when you jump from a 73RS into a 991RS. There is such a void in interaction between the cars that you jump out of the 991 (read anything else modern for that matter) and think 'how did we get here'.
Car builders have learned a lot about speed over the years but maybe have forgotten a lot more about where the driver and his reward/enjoyment fits into the eqation.
A graphic way to experience this is to jump out of a race car and into a road car of each period. From the 73RS to the 2004 GT3 RS the cars feel closely related. The race cars being merely a more intense an vicseral experience of the road car. With the advent of PASM things change with the 997 Cup. There is a far greater distance between the cars but there is still a genetic conection. That is finally lost with the 991 which has far more traction and active chasis systems that the 997 and frankly shares almost almost nothing with the race version which by its nature will alays be the ultimate incarnation of the vehice.
Car builders have learned a lot about speed over the years but maybe have forgotten a lot more about where the driver and his reward/enjoyment fits into the eqation.
A graphic way to experience this is to jump out of a race car and into a road car of each period. From the 73RS to the 2004 GT3 RS the cars feel closely related. The race cars being merely a more intense an vicseral experience of the road car. With the advent of PASM things change with the 997 Cup. There is a far greater distance between the cars but there is still a genetic conection. That is finally lost with the 991 which has far more traction and active chasis systems that the 997 and frankly shares almost almost nothing with the race version which by its nature will alays be the ultimate incarnation of the vehice.
Great pictures Andrew, glad to hear how much you are enjoying the old girl.
Rednose330 said:
Had the pleasure of driving that 2.7 rs for a day, on behalf of then owner, for magazine article .............one of the best sorted i ve driven [i m old enough to have owned and driven a few!]
agree with every word ...............
Grandad, still got the pictures....I seem to remember we ended that day driving a rental Hyundai however, ouef ! agree with every word ...............
Edited by seawise on Monday 12th September 11:40
I think it's a little harsh on the new car, and perhaps a bit rose tinted with the old one...
New cars like the GT3 RS can be just as visceral, if not more so. They need real skill to approach their actual limits, but there is a false ceiling for any driver to feel like a hero in one.
As an able driver like Chris Harris has shown, the new cars have great geometry and setup to still allow you to play with them, but you do need the skill and reactions to do with it. This takes a lot of seat time to master.
And that's the rewardin) learning curve. Trust me, holding a slide at 100mph is far more exciting than at 50mph! That's where the immediacy of controls is important against the inherent slack in oldder cars.
I think the answer here is the '73 is a great Sunday driver car to be exploited on the road. The GT3 RS needs a track to shine, which makes it a travesty for anyone to own one and not use it as such.
New cars like the GT3 RS can be just as visceral, if not more so. They need real skill to approach their actual limits, but there is a false ceiling for any driver to feel like a hero in one.
As an able driver like Chris Harris has shown, the new cars have great geometry and setup to still allow you to play with them, but you do need the skill and reactions to do with it. This takes a lot of seat time to master.
And that's the rewardin) learning curve. Trust me, holding a slide at 100mph is far more exciting than at 50mph! That's where the immediacy of controls is important against the inherent slack in oldder cars.
I think the answer here is the '73 is a great Sunday driver car to be exploited on the road. The GT3 RS needs a track to shine, which makes it a travesty for anyone to own one and not use it as such.
hondansx said:
I think it's a little harsh on the new car, and perhaps a bit rose tinted with the old one...
New cars like the GT3 RS can be just as visceral, if not more so. They need real skill to approach their actual limits, but there is a false ceiling for any driver to feel like a hero in one.
As an able driver like Chris Harris has shown, the new cars have great geometry and setup to still allow you to play with them, but you do need the skill and reactions to do with it. This takes a lot of seat time to master.
And that's the rewardin) learning curve. Trust me, holding a slide at 100mph is far more exciting than at 50mph! That's where the immediacy of controls is important against the inherent slack in oldder cars.
I think the answer here is the '73 is a great Sunday driver car to be exploited on the road. The GT3 RS needs a track to shine, which makes it a travesty for anyone to own one and not use it as such.
When you are driving are fully active car with shock rates, anti roll bar rates, abd etc.. changing all of the time near the limit, a driver can never engage with it. Its a movig feast and needs 2nd guessing all of the time. By it's very nature can never match a passive car for driver feel or involvement. New cars like the GT3 RS can be just as visceral, if not more so. They need real skill to approach their actual limits, but there is a false ceiling for any driver to feel like a hero in one.
As an able driver like Chris Harris has shown, the new cars have great geometry and setup to still allow you to play with them, but you do need the skill and reactions to do with it. This takes a lot of seat time to master.
And that's the rewardin) learning curve. Trust me, holding a slide at 100mph is far more exciting than at 50mph! That's where the immediacy of controls is important against the inherent slack in oldder cars.
I think the answer here is the '73 is a great Sunday driver car to be exploited on the road. The GT3 RS needs a track to shine, which makes it a travesty for anyone to own one and not use it as such.
AndrewD said:
Then there is the old school manual box, you are aware you are driving a mechanical thing, don't rush 2nd to 3rd changes, execute heel and toe shifts time after time,
Nice pics, thanks for sharing.Is it fair to say that those older pre G50 gearboxes were just utter s
te ? I remember the one on my SC back in '88 was a horrible thing.Steve Rance said:
Car builders have learned a lot about speed over the years but maybe have forgotten a lot more about where the driver and his reward/enjoyment fits into the eqation.
+101The recent batch of Supercars fall into this trap, including the limited edition "Specials". They are not race cars, and so remain a compromise on both road and circuit.
Full Fat Analogue to go please
Edited by sparta6 on Monday 12th September 14:52
Edited by sparta6 on Monday 12th September 14:53
Steve Rance said:
When you are driving are fully active car with shock rates, anti roll bar rates, abd etc.. changing all of the time near the limit, a driver can never engage with it. Its a movig feast and needs 2nd guessing all of the time. By it's very nature can never match a passive car for driver feel or involvement.
Steve, I'm usually in the same camp as you on the passive vs. active debate. However, the 991RS has really narrowed the margin and moved things on vs. the last 997 iteration. Up to and well beyond the limit it's enormously communicative, intuitive and deeply rewarding. By far the most impressive street Porsche I've driven on track bar the Carrera GT.Edited by 993rsr on Monday 12th September 17:05
Thanks for the positive comments. I'm aware people will have different opinions and that's fine of course. I love the 991RS and GT4 but they really are too fast and accomplished and easy most of the time. Over the years I have done over 150 track days and raced various cars for several seasons. Don't have as much time to track cars as I used to right now so inevitably my impressions are from driving on the road. But I suspect I would have more enjoyment in a slower old thing on track too. These are still road cars and I've raced light cars with lots of downforce so a road car isn't going to give me the same rush. Yes they are more at home on track, where you can appreciate their capabilities more fully, but that defeats the point a little for me. Wish I could have got an R, as do many!
There will be days when I will get up and take the keys to the 991. I drive my Spyder every week and it is great. Variety is the spice of life etc. But feeling as I do right now, if I had to keep just one car, I would keep the CGT but I would spend a long time weighing up the 73RS. Will drive them both back to back next weekend I hope.
Is the gearbox in the 73RS rubbish? No! It is a delight, but it takes some getting used to, 2nd to 3rd in particular can't be rushed, and for some that's a failing, fair enough. I just think it is part of this mechanical thing, learn to drive it and enjoy it. In that respect, just like the CGT and its clutch.
For modern cars, the 991 and GT4 are as good as they get, and the old cars need upkeep etc. I'm not at all interested in Ferrari these days, McL are interesting, but to me Porsche are right up these making the best cars for enthusiasts. It is what it is, all cars are going this way and have for a while with active suspension, rear wheel steer, dual clutch boxes, and ever smarter traction and stability control. I wonder how much "feel" in cars today is engineered in? Be fascinating to talk to an automotive engineer.
There will be days when I will get up and take the keys to the 991. I drive my Spyder every week and it is great. Variety is the spice of life etc. But feeling as I do right now, if I had to keep just one car, I would keep the CGT but I would spend a long time weighing up the 73RS. Will drive them both back to back next weekend I hope.
Is the gearbox in the 73RS rubbish? No! It is a delight, but it takes some getting used to, 2nd to 3rd in particular can't be rushed, and for some that's a failing, fair enough. I just think it is part of this mechanical thing, learn to drive it and enjoy it. In that respect, just like the CGT and its clutch.
For modern cars, the 991 and GT4 are as good as they get, and the old cars need upkeep etc. I'm not at all interested in Ferrari these days, McL are interesting, but to me Porsche are right up these making the best cars for enthusiasts. It is what it is, all cars are going this way and have for a while with active suspension, rear wheel steer, dual clutch boxes, and ever smarter traction and stability control. I wonder how much "feel" in cars today is engineered in? Be fascinating to talk to an automotive engineer.
Edited by AndrewD on Monday 12th September 18:58
Steve Rance said:
A graphic way to experience this is to jump out of a race car and into a road car of each period. From the 73RS to the 2004 GT3 RS the cars feel closely related. The race cars being merely a more intense an vicseral experience of the road car. With the advent of PASM things change with the 997 Cup. There is a far greater distance between the cars but there is still a genetic conection. That is finally lost with the 991 which has far more traction and active chasis systems that the 997 and frankly shares almost almost nothing with the race version which by its nature will alays be the ultimate incarnation of the vehicle
That's perhaps a bit unfair to the more modern cars as the divergence as also come about from the other side as well. Race cars have got much more specialised to be competitive, the 997 cup for example i believe marked a big performance step over the 996 and it would have been very difficult for the road gt3 to have maintained the track/race focus of the race car (cup nevermind something like the rsr) while being an acceptable road car. I do agree though the 991 basically shares nothing at all with the race car and therefore really should never have been called a gt3.Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff