Dyno plots from my 993 RS remap - comments please
Discussion
Hi fellas,
I wanted to show you the results of remapping my 993 RS. Some of the story is a bit of a mystery, so I would appreciate your comments.
I bought the car in December 2004. It uses “RS Tuning” parts with sports camshafts, mechanical rocker arms and uprated valve springs (so higher revs can be sustained). An individual throttle body conversion had been undertaken with “magnesium race inlets” and a BMC cone air filter. (The original Varioram system came with the car as well). The car had been re-mapped by Olaf Manthey. There are various maps supplied with the paperwork, the last one claimed 340 BHP………
When I got the car, it was lovely all except for the engine.
The car wouldn’t idle. You needed to keep your feet on all 3 pedals at junctions to stop the thing stalling. You needed at least 3500 RPM to do this, the result being you looked (and sounded) a total nob head.
Also, the car had a huge dip in power at 3000 RPM and also to a lesser extent at 5000 RPM. Sometimes the car failed to accelerate at all at the 3000-RPM level, it would just sit there refusing to go any faster.
These were the maps I got with the car from Manthey Racing. They were all done on different days as the dates show. I assume this means that a new piece of hardware was added at each stage?
I wasn’t happy with the engine, so I had the car taken to 9M in Warrington for Colin to have a look at.
The following dyno plot was recorded on Colin’s rolling road:
Pretty rubbish isn’t it?
Colin sometimes couldn’t get the car to accelerate through the massive dip at 3000 RPM!! Terrible. Paul Howells was there for this run. I bet he thought it was the crappiest thing he had ever seen.
So what had happened between Manthey fettling the car and me buying it? Maps don’t “go off” like milk on a warm day, so we assumed something was very wrong with my engine.
I was bricking it and bracing myself for some pricey engine repairs, but we decided that the best thing to start with would be a re-map with the help of Wayne Schofield, mapper-extaordinaire. This was like saying that we assume Manthey’s map is rubbish and we can do better, and with their reputation, this was quite a statement.
However, the results were brilliant:
Using the SAME rolling road, Colin and Wayne had achieved a jump in peak power from 292 BHP to 348 BHP, a whopping 56 BHP rise. Torque was up from 260 (I think) to 300 lb/ft.
The car now idles!!!! This is a big deal. It is a revelation in fact. The car revs freely with no hesitation. I can’t really detect the dip still showing at 3000 RPM on Colin’s remap. The car feels sprightly and much much faster.
Colin reckons I should aim for more and bung on his custom heads and his intake system plus Motec. This will cost 10 grand (at least) so I would have to flog my old intake system on Ebay to afford it, and when I have enough money I will do it. Can anyone lend me a fiver?!
So what do you guys think happened to my car? Did Manthey just not map it correctly?
I met Paul Riley (he is 944/68 on here) at Oulton Park on Saturday. He has just bought a red 993 RS CS in red. Interestingly the same guy owned both our cars before we bought them. Both cars seem to have very similar mods done at Manthey. They even have the same cool aluminium floor trays in the foot wells (although these were done in Blighty). Here’s the thing……his car’s engine feels crap too. Colin has tried it and he says it isn’t as bad as mine was…..the car does in fact idle!! However, there is a big flat spot in Paul’s engine when you try to accelerate out of corners at low speed. Colin is remapping it now with Wayne. It will be interesting if exactly the same differences are shown pre and post remap for Paul’s car. Perhaps Manthey had the YTS lad doing remaps the day Pauls cars and mine were in their workshops?
I wanted to show you the results of remapping my 993 RS. Some of the story is a bit of a mystery, so I would appreciate your comments.
I bought the car in December 2004. It uses “RS Tuning” parts with sports camshafts, mechanical rocker arms and uprated valve springs (so higher revs can be sustained). An individual throttle body conversion had been undertaken with “magnesium race inlets” and a BMC cone air filter. (The original Varioram system came with the car as well). The car had been re-mapped by Olaf Manthey. There are various maps supplied with the paperwork, the last one claimed 340 BHP………
When I got the car, it was lovely all except for the engine.
The car wouldn’t idle. You needed to keep your feet on all 3 pedals at junctions to stop the thing stalling. You needed at least 3500 RPM to do this, the result being you looked (and sounded) a total nob head.
Also, the car had a huge dip in power at 3000 RPM and also to a lesser extent at 5000 RPM. Sometimes the car failed to accelerate at all at the 3000-RPM level, it would just sit there refusing to go any faster.
These were the maps I got with the car from Manthey Racing. They were all done on different days as the dates show. I assume this means that a new piece of hardware was added at each stage?
I wasn’t happy with the engine, so I had the car taken to 9M in Warrington for Colin to have a look at.
The following dyno plot was recorded on Colin’s rolling road:
Pretty rubbish isn’t it?
Colin sometimes couldn’t get the car to accelerate through the massive dip at 3000 RPM!! Terrible. Paul Howells was there for this run. I bet he thought it was the crappiest thing he had ever seen.
So what had happened between Manthey fettling the car and me buying it? Maps don’t “go off” like milk on a warm day, so we assumed something was very wrong with my engine.
I was bricking it and bracing myself for some pricey engine repairs, but we decided that the best thing to start with would be a re-map with the help of Wayne Schofield, mapper-extaordinaire. This was like saying that we assume Manthey’s map is rubbish and we can do better, and with their reputation, this was quite a statement.
However, the results were brilliant:
Using the SAME rolling road, Colin and Wayne had achieved a jump in peak power from 292 BHP to 348 BHP, a whopping 56 BHP rise. Torque was up from 260 (I think) to 300 lb/ft.
The car now idles!!!! This is a big deal. It is a revelation in fact. The car revs freely with no hesitation. I can’t really detect the dip still showing at 3000 RPM on Colin’s remap. The car feels sprightly and much much faster.
Colin reckons I should aim for more and bung on his custom heads and his intake system plus Motec. This will cost 10 grand (at least) so I would have to flog my old intake system on Ebay to afford it, and when I have enough money I will do it. Can anyone lend me a fiver?!
So what do you guys think happened to my car? Did Manthey just not map it correctly?
I met Paul Riley (he is 944/68 on here) at Oulton Park on Saturday. He has just bought a red 993 RS CS in red. Interestingly the same guy owned both our cars before we bought them. Both cars seem to have very similar mods done at Manthey. They even have the same cool aluminium floor trays in the foot wells (although these were done in Blighty). Here’s the thing……his car’s engine feels crap too. Colin has tried it and he says it isn’t as bad as mine was…..the car does in fact idle!! However, there is a big flat spot in Paul’s engine when you try to accelerate out of corners at low speed. Colin is remapping it now with Wayne. It will be interesting if exactly the same differences are shown pre and post remap for Paul’s car. Perhaps Manthey had the YTS lad doing remaps the day Pauls cars and mine were in their workshops?
Well all the evidence points to the previous map being a bag o' shite.
Of course Manthey has a decent reputation so this is surprising. I'm no engineer, so I'm probably talking shite, but the only thing I can think of is that the map was designed for big octane fuel, and the ECU reverts to duff 'safe' settings if it detects detonation, which may be possible on lower octane UK fuel?? Optimax may be 97-98 RON but IIRC there's a german fuel which is 100 RON.... perhaps the midrange hole is due to lean-out which would detonate on 97 but not on 100???
I don't know whether the 993 RS ECU has this kind of functionality so someone correct me if I'm wrong! Just fancied a guess! The ninemeister will know, but I'm not sure he'll want to get into a 9m-vs-Manthey slagging session on PH...
Of course Manthey has a decent reputation so this is surprising. I'm no engineer, so I'm probably talking shite, but the only thing I can think of is that the map was designed for big octane fuel, and the ECU reverts to duff 'safe' settings if it detects detonation, which may be possible on lower octane UK fuel?? Optimax may be 97-98 RON but IIRC there's a german fuel which is 100 RON.... perhaps the midrange hole is due to lean-out which would detonate on 97 but not on 100???
I don't know whether the 993 RS ECU has this kind of functionality so someone correct me if I'm wrong! Just fancied a guess! The ninemeister will know, but I'm not sure he'll want to get into a 9m-vs-Manthey slagging session on PH...
The huge 3000rpm hole in the original map was totally due to a lean mixture, in fact I would call it dangerously lean (for the piston's life that is): typical full throttle mixture is around Lambda 0.88-0.92 (~13:1) whereas this engine measures 1.4 at 3000 and ran at 1.2ish through to the red line.
First throughts were fuel pressure but that was standard at 3.8bar. Second thoughts were to injectors, but they flow checked perfect. so there was nothing else to look at other than mapping. Loaded a standard 993RS file into the ecu and the engine produced 325bhp, so it proved that a remap would sort it out.
The idle issue was down to badly adjusted throttle bodies, removing the plenums and balancing the individual idle flow of the throttles sorted this one.
All I can really add it that this is how the car arrived, it may not have been how it left Germany, but with no faults to be found anywhere on the ecu or sensors there are not many conclusions to arrive at.
Paul's red car is another issue. The full throttle power seems ample, but the car is impossible to drive at anything other than 100% as the engine literally dies on its face. Should resolve this one next week in a similar manner, hopefully.
First throughts were fuel pressure but that was standard at 3.8bar. Second thoughts were to injectors, but they flow checked perfect. so there was nothing else to look at other than mapping. Loaded a standard 993RS file into the ecu and the engine produced 325bhp, so it proved that a remap would sort it out.
The idle issue was down to badly adjusted throttle bodies, removing the plenums and balancing the individual idle flow of the throttles sorted this one.
All I can really add it that this is how the car arrived, it may not have been how it left Germany, but with no faults to be found anywhere on the ecu or sensors there are not many conclusions to arrive at.
Paul's red car is another issue. The full throttle power seems ample, but the car is impossible to drive at anything other than 100% as the engine literally dies on its face. Should resolve this one next week in a similar manner, hopefully.
What i would say with manthey,they are good.There reputation is built on a stunning racing pedigree. So there must be a underlying problem some where,may be at manthey.
Where the throttle bodies balanced before the remap?and what power did it read out after they were balanced.
The red car in question had a good track day session at donnington,a couple of years ago on the tail of peter morris yellow rs which was a strong car,especialy at donny.So what has happened in the mean time.
I check and reset my throttle bodies at least every 3 months,they do go out of balance.
What rs tuning parts are you referring to ,as i rate rs tuning as one of the top engine builders ,along with roitmayer ,and a english company some where!
Where the throttle bodies balanced before the remap?and what power did it read out after they were balanced.
The red car in question had a good track day session at donnington,a couple of years ago on the tail of peter morris yellow rs which was a strong car,especialy at donny.So what has happened in the mean time.
I check and reset my throttle bodies at least every 3 months,they do go out of balance.
What rs tuning parts are you referring to ,as i rate rs tuning as one of the top engine builders ,along with roitmayer ,and a english company some where!
burzel said:
Where the throttle bodies balanced before the remap?
Paul, is this a big job?, I was going to drive the car to Colin's, just wondering if I'd be better trailering it incase the remap takes more than a day
burzel said:
I check and reset my throttle bodies at least every 3 months,they do go out of balance.
Is that a DIY job or a regular trip to Warrington?
Paul
cyberface said:
Well all the evidence points to the previous map being a bag o' shite.
Of course Manthey has a decent reputation so this is surprising. I'm no engineer, so I'm probably talking shite, but the only thing I can think of is that the map was designed for big octane fuel, and the ECU reverts to duff 'safe' settings if it detects detonation, which may be possible on lower octane UK fuel?? Optimax may be 97-98 RON but IIRC there's a german fuel which is 100 RON.... perhaps the midrange hole is due to lean-out which would detonate on 97 but not on 100???
I don't know whether the 993 RS ECU has this kind of functionality so someone correct me if I'm wrong! Just fancied a guess! The ninemeister will know, but I'm not sure he'll want to get into a 9m-vs-Manthey slagging session on PH...
I don't know about fuel, but I'm thinking the map may have been a bit sub-standard. Any other guesses very welcome as well.
tony.t said:
Any hardware fitted after the last Manthey map?
Still looks like a lot of money spent for 40hp over standard by PO.
I don't know if any other hardware was fitted after the last Manthey remap, but I really doubt it. I have all the bills and reciepts, there's nothing to suggest this.
burzel said:
Where the throttle bodies balanced before the remap?and what power did it read out after they were balanced.
The red car in question had a good track day session at donnington,a couple of years ago on the tail of peter morris yellow rs which was a strong car,especialy at donny.So what has happened in the mean time.
I check and reset my throttle bodies at least every 3 months,they do go out of balance.
What rs tuning parts are you referring to ,as i rate rs tuning as one of the top engine builders ,along with roitmayer ,and a english company some where!
This is very interesting Paul.
However, as you can see, Colin does mention balancing the throttle bodies in his post. I'm assuming that doing this didn't sort out my engine entirely........he says it merely sorted the idle. Is that right Colin???
I am assuming that Colin balanced the throttle bodies first and then saw modest improvements in my engine. I am assuming that he and Wayne needed to comprehensively remap my engine to get it to work properly, thereby questioning the original map of the Manthey folk.
Am I right Colin??????
Colin said the engine was running way too lean all the way through the rev range, but the injectors flowed OK etc. - therefore the original map was simply not adding enough fuel i.e. not opening them long enough.
So either the map was originally developed for differently calibrated inputs or (wild guess) for some fuel that works OK at the leaner mixtures. Was the air flow/mass sensor changed? Presumably this is the major input to the ECU's fuelling algorithm, and if this was changed or re-calibrated after the original map was installed, the ECU may be thinking less air is being ingested than is in reality.
Trawling though the maintenance history looking for breathing component changes after the Manthey map may shed some light...
Apart from that, damn good job Colin sorted it before you ended up burning pistons / valves!
So either the map was originally developed for differently calibrated inputs or (wild guess) for some fuel that works OK at the leaner mixtures. Was the air flow/mass sensor changed? Presumably this is the major input to the ECU's fuelling algorithm, and if this was changed or re-calibrated after the original map was installed, the ECU may be thinking less air is being ingested than is in reality.
Trawling though the maintenance history looking for breathing component changes after the Manthey map may shed some light...
Apart from that, damn good job Colin sorted it before you ended up burning pistons / valves!
pesty said:
Interesting. Have you thought about contacting Manthey and asking their opinion?
They have a very good reputaion and I would have thought they would be interested.
Which is actually a good idea.
Cars of this type are usually known items. Since 9M have been able to get a reasonable bhp out of this car by remap then the upgrades are not a complete dogs dinner. Someone must have had a ride/followed/passed/been passed by this car and know its providence.
Manthey don't do thousands of upgrades and will know this particular car. The 340hp dyno plot is no doubt a true one and they would be interested in the 9M plots.
[naive]Since the purchase is a done deal and Johnny is now happy with the purchase there should not be a problem with the free flow of information.[/naive]
tony.t said:
Interesting. Have you thought about contacting Manthey and asking their opinion?
They have a very good reputaion and I would have thought they would be interested.
Which is actually a good idea.
Cars of this type are usually known items. Since 9M have been able to get a reasonable bhp out of this car by remap then the upgrades are not a complete dogs dinner. Someone must have had a ride/followed/passed/been passed by this car and know its providence.
Manthey don't do thousands of upgrades and will know this particular car. The 340hp dyno plot is no doubt a true one and they would be interested in the 9M plots.
[naive]Since the purchase is a done deal and Johnny is now happy with the purchase there should not be a problem with the free flow of information.[/naive]
Tony,
I am happy witht he car and so yes, free flow of information is fine really.
I might contact Manthey about this if I get a moment.
Joe911 said:
While I don't know the specific details of what engine work was done to that car and in what order - the dyno runs from Manthey were from 2002, right? So there could have been major changes between then and when you bought the car, no?
I just think that is unlikely Joe. The car was owned by a chap called Man Lau when it came to the UK in 2002. It was Man Lau who paid for all the fancy bits. The hardware seems to have all gone on at roughly the same time over a period of a few months in 2002, including the exhaust.
The next owners were James Doherty and Steven Ivermee (who shared the car). Steven posts here and he has a Mk2 GT3 now with Manthey upgrades to engine and suspension. I really doubt that these guys modded the car at all. I have all their invoices and it's just for standard servicing etc.
I'll try to get Steven to look at this thread for his thoughts.
ninemeister said:
Paul's red car is another issue. The full throttle power seems ample
Since when has ample been enough
My car had a 30,000euro Manthey rebuild in march last year and displays most of johnny's initial problems, all thats been done since then was a service......at Manthey!, as both cars display the same faults, could it be as simple as fuel octane
johnny senna said:
I don't know about fuel, but I'm thinking the map may have been a bit sub-standard. Any other guesses very welcome as well.
johnny,
As an "off the wall" thought, could an OPC have looked at the car (say for a pre-purchase inspection). They may have plugged in the diagnostics and inadvertently overwritten the Manthey map with an original Porsche one. With all the intake mods done on the car, and an original map, I'm not surprised if it ran like a dog!
Just a thought.
Hi Paul throttle bodies are easy enough to balance up or get it checked at every service.Colin will sort them for you.
You know what i am like for that 5bhp on the day,if the car starts to get lumpy on tick over,it will normaly be the throttle bodies probably need a re balance.On full throttle they will normaly be fine.
Speed champs entry then?!
Doc on the black car you mentioned rs tuning parts,what did rs have to do with your engine?
Donnington next monday the 23rd march with gold track any one.
You know what i am like for that 5bhp on the day,if the car starts to get lumpy on tick over,it will normaly be the throttle bodies probably need a re balance.On full throttle they will normaly be fine.
Speed champs entry then?!
Doc on the black car you mentioned rs tuning parts,what did rs have to do with your engine?
Donnington next monday the 23rd march with gold track any one.
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