Smart trainers - any experts/advice?
Discussion
Me and the wife have entered an ironman distance triathlon next summer. That means bike training over the winter.
Im considering purchasing a smart trainer to use on apps like trainer road and zwift.
Anyone got any advice?
I think I would prefer a direct drive trainer and as quiet a trainer as possible but some are bloody expensive.
Im considering purchasing a smart trainer to use on apps like trainer road and zwift.
Anyone got any advice?
I think I would prefer a direct drive trainer and as quiet a trainer as possible but some are bloody expensive.
Plenty of options depending on price. Based on my experience and that of club mates:
Tacx Neo - top end trainer. Quiet and with a good road feel.
Wahoo Kickr - I've owned one for 2 years. No issues at all in this time. Louder than the Neo but can't say I've really noticed, especially when you have a fan going in your face and music/films playing in the background. There is new Kickr out which is meant to be quieter.
Tacx Vortex - much cheaper but great reviews from friends in my cycling club. Doesn't have as a good a 'feel' as the above, but can still generate plenty of resistance (about 800 or 900 W I think) and will automatically adjust when in Erg mode, or when hitting gradients in Zwift.
In terms of software, Zwift for me the must-have application. All the benefits of TrainerRoad, i.e. structured workouts, but the interactive and VR aspect is just brilliant. There are loads of races and group rides. The races are great fun and a real workout if you sit in the right group. Hardest (short) rides this year have been in Zwift races - much harder than chain gangs I've been doing!
Tacx Neo - top end trainer. Quiet and with a good road feel.
Wahoo Kickr - I've owned one for 2 years. No issues at all in this time. Louder than the Neo but can't say I've really noticed, especially when you have a fan going in your face and music/films playing in the background. There is new Kickr out which is meant to be quieter.
Tacx Vortex - much cheaper but great reviews from friends in my cycling club. Doesn't have as a good a 'feel' as the above, but can still generate plenty of resistance (about 800 or 900 W I think) and will automatically adjust when in Erg mode, or when hitting gradients in Zwift.
In terms of software, Zwift for me the must-have application. All the benefits of TrainerRoad, i.e. structured workouts, but the interactive and VR aspect is just brilliant. There are loads of races and group rides. The races are great fun and a real workout if you sit in the right group. Hardest (short) rides this year have been in Zwift races - much harder than chain gangs I've been doing!
Had a vortex for a year and 1 ironman training cycle (my 3rd attempt at the distance). Observations:
'Power' returned is quite inaccurate (compared with a Quarq Rikken). It is not systematically inaccurate either - you cannot say the turbo is X watts over, it varies, despite rolldown tests etc. The Neo/Kickr should be better in this respect.
Started with Zwift. Fun, but ropey on the structured training - they dropped support for ERG mode with a powermeter, turning the vortex into essentially a dumb trainer - it will do erg mode with the trainer as the power source, but see 1) above.
Moved to Trainerroad. Great library of workouts, ERG with powermeter via powermatch or whatever they call it. Slow capturing power level in erg mode, and I had a coach, so found it a pain in the *** entering the coaches workouts all the time.
Eventually have reverted to using it in slope mode (i.e. dumb trainer), and scribbling the workout on the back of an envelope, watching the edge for the power and changing gear to vary the resistance.
Note that the max slope they publish is UTTER NONSENSE. That is the max slope it can hold at a realistic wheel speed. Bang the bike into 52/11, and it'll produce enough resistance to stop you turning the pedals. Anyway, you're highly unlikely to need more than about 300-350watts for ironman training.
If I did it over again, I'd probably buy a dumb trainer..
'Power' returned is quite inaccurate (compared with a Quarq Rikken). It is not systematically inaccurate either - you cannot say the turbo is X watts over, it varies, despite rolldown tests etc. The Neo/Kickr should be better in this respect.
Started with Zwift. Fun, but ropey on the structured training - they dropped support for ERG mode with a powermeter, turning the vortex into essentially a dumb trainer - it will do erg mode with the trainer as the power source, but see 1) above.
Moved to Trainerroad. Great library of workouts, ERG with powermeter via powermatch or whatever they call it. Slow capturing power level in erg mode, and I had a coach, so found it a pain in the *** entering the coaches workouts all the time.
Eventually have reverted to using it in slope mode (i.e. dumb trainer), and scribbling the workout on the back of an envelope, watching the edge for the power and changing gear to vary the resistance.
Note that the max slope they publish is UTTER NONSENSE. That is the max slope it can hold at a realistic wheel speed. Bang the bike into 52/11, and it'll produce enough resistance to stop you turning the pedals. Anyway, you're highly unlikely to need more than about 300-350watts for ironman training.
If I did it over again, I'd probably buy a dumb trainer..
upsidedownmark said:
Had a vortex for a year and 1 ironman training cycle (my 3rd attempt at the distance). Observations:
'Power' returned is quite inaccurate (compared with a Quarq Rikken). It is not systematically inaccurate either - you cannot say the turbo is X watts over, it varies, despite rolldown tests etc. The Neo/Kickr should be better in this respect.
Started with Zwift. Fun, but ropey on the structured training - they dropped support for ERG mode with a powermeter, turning the vortex into essentially a dumb trainer - it will do erg mode with the trainer as the power source, but see 1) above.
Moved to Trainerroad. Great library of workouts, ERG with powermeter via powermatch or whatever they call it. Slow capturing power level in erg mode, and I had a coach, so found it a pain in the *** entering the coaches workouts all the time.
Eventually have reverted to using it in slope mode (i.e. dumb trainer), and scribbling the workout on the back of an envelope, watching the edge for the power and changing gear to vary the resistance.
Note that the max slope they publish is UTTER NONSENSE. That is the max slope it can hold at a realistic wheel speed. Bang the bike into 52/11, and it'll produce enough resistance to stop you turning the pedals. Anyway, you're highly unlikely to need more than about 300-350watts for ironman training.
If I did it over again, I'd probably buy a dumb trainer..
I have no idea what you mean by ERG. Im pretty clueless really.'Power' returned is quite inaccurate (compared with a Quarq Rikken). It is not systematically inaccurate either - you cannot say the turbo is X watts over, it varies, despite rolldown tests etc. The Neo/Kickr should be better in this respect.
Started with Zwift. Fun, but ropey on the structured training - they dropped support for ERG mode with a powermeter, turning the vortex into essentially a dumb trainer - it will do erg mode with the trainer as the power source, but see 1) above.
Moved to Trainerroad. Great library of workouts, ERG with powermeter via powermatch or whatever they call it. Slow capturing power level in erg mode, and I had a coach, so found it a pain in the *** entering the coaches workouts all the time.
Eventually have reverted to using it in slope mode (i.e. dumb trainer), and scribbling the workout on the back of an envelope, watching the edge for the power and changing gear to vary the resistance.
Note that the max slope they publish is UTTER NONSENSE. That is the max slope it can hold at a realistic wheel speed. Bang the bike into 52/11, and it'll produce enough resistance to stop you turning the pedals. Anyway, you're highly unlikely to need more than about 300-350watts for ironman training.
If I did it over again, I'd probably buy a dumb trainer..
The wife already has a cheap tax trainer and i find it a bit boring I'm thinking a more smart trainer and some fancy graphics might motivate me a bit.
ERG is when the turbo trainer automatically sets the resistance according to the workout.
Trainers *are* 'boring'. Some pretty graphics won't change that - never get on the turbo without a plan (a session, usually intervals), rarely more than an hour. If you want to actually *train* for an ironman, do this. TBH if you don't have a focus, the turbo will get old quickly, smart or not.
Trainers *are* 'boring'. Some pretty graphics won't change that - never get on the turbo without a plan (a session, usually intervals), rarely more than an hour. If you want to actually *train* for an ironman, do this. TBH if you don't have a focus, the turbo will get old quickly, smart or not.
As said above - Erg mode is when the trainer holds the power for you, so doesn't matter what gear you're in - it'll alter the resistance to hold you at a certain power - Do you have a power meter on your bike? know much about training with power - reading up on this might be a good place to start as its basically why smart trainers exist.
They are very very dull - and you get very very hot, pretty pictures on a screen won't alter that, i listen to podcasts or watch Netflix.
I've never used zwift very much - from what I can see its very pretty, and lets you ride with your friends / total strangers - all very clever but I don't see the point for structured training (maybe I missed that bit)
I use trainer road with a kickr, you get on - set the workout you want (there are ironman specific training plans) - and you just pedal / suffer / sweat until it tells you to stop.
Have a read through the dc rainmaker blog for his recommendations - he is the go to guy for reviews.
They are very very dull - and you get very very hot, pretty pictures on a screen won't alter that, i listen to podcasts or watch Netflix.
I've never used zwift very much - from what I can see its very pretty, and lets you ride with your friends / total strangers - all very clever but I don't see the point for structured training (maybe I missed that bit)
I use trainer road with a kickr, you get on - set the workout you want (there are ironman specific training plans) - and you just pedal / suffer / sweat until it tells you to stop.
Have a read through the dc rainmaker blog for his recommendations - he is the go to guy for reviews.
zwift does (now) have structured training similar to trainerroad - IMHO trainerroad is still better for proper focussed training.
As said, my main suggestion to the OP would be to have a very clear idea of how you're going to use the turbo. Just 'riding' isn't going to help you a lot, and is boring AF. Turbo is for structured, relatively short duration work. The 6hr race simulation type rides will either require a lot of clothes, or just leave them until the summer. You probably don't need more tha 3hr base rides early on anyway.
As said, my main suggestion to the OP would be to have a very clear idea of how you're going to use the turbo. Just 'riding' isn't going to help you a lot, and is boring AF. Turbo is for structured, relatively short duration work. The 6hr race simulation type rides will either require a lot of clothes, or just leave them until the summer. You probably don't need more tha 3hr base rides early on anyway.
I suppose I just want to improve my cycling and get some decent time riding in over the winter, living where I do the weather can be very poor over the winter making outside riding a pain a lot of the time.
I thought the swift style riding might keep my interest for 2-3 hr sessions over the winter and also also me to do structured workouts. I have previously found that a bit of structure helped my running quite a bit.
The wife is also entered for the same event as me so she will use it as well, we work different shifts so won't be training at the same time a lot. The event is mid june so our training will be starting early, If it was a month later I wouldn't be so bothered about a trainer.
I suppose it might be best to get the best trainer possible at the moment then it will last us for a long time and will be likely to get used more.
I thought the swift style riding might keep my interest for 2-3 hr sessions over the winter and also also me to do structured workouts. I have previously found that a bit of structure helped my running quite a bit.
The wife is also entered for the same event as me so she will use it as well, we work different shifts so won't be training at the same time a lot. The event is mid june so our training will be starting early, If it was a month later I wouldn't be so bothered about a trainer.
I suppose it might be best to get the best trainer possible at the moment then it will last us for a long time and will be likely to get used more.
You've got to be pretty focused to stick 2-3 hours on Zwift. My limit is 1.5-2 hours. That's just me though.
I used a mix of workouts and free ride on Zwift last winter to get me ready for TTs this year and riding the Marmotte. We're all different but a Smart trainer and Zwift worked great for me. Never bored. I am a stubborn bugger though and can't resist chasing a better time up the mountain on Zwift Island, gets me every time. Oh, and trying to stick with some of the quicker group rides. Challenging.
Personal thing but I couldn't go back to a dumb trainer.
I used a mix of workouts and free ride on Zwift last winter to get me ready for TTs this year and riding the Marmotte. We're all different but a Smart trainer and Zwift worked great for me. Never bored. I am a stubborn bugger though and can't resist chasing a better time up the mountain on Zwift Island, gets me every time. Oh, and trying to stick with some of the quicker group rides. Challenging.
Personal thing but I couldn't go back to a dumb trainer.
Good timing for the thread. After 25yrs of "riding how I feel" for about 5-10 hrs per week, I'm seriously considering spending the winter with trainer road in the garage on a trainer.
so 2 questions;
- will I get more fitness benefit this way (maybe 33% less hrs but more structured and intense)
- what cheap (<£300) trainer would you recommend and why?
Thanks
Carl
so 2 questions;
- will I get more fitness benefit this way (maybe 33% less hrs but more structured and intense)
- what cheap (<£300) trainer would you recommend and why?
Thanks
Carl
I found the workouts in Zwift much tougher than Traineroad in terms of the required power intervals to FTP ratio.
Also if you flag a bit mid interval and Zwift turns off ERG, then it wont re-enable it until the next interval. However some workouts are just one interval for an hour so then the whole thing has to be restarted. Hence I stopped using Zwift for workouts and just do rides.
Also if you flag a bit mid interval and Zwift turns off ERG, then it wont re-enable it until the next interval. However some workouts are just one interval for an hour so then the whole thing has to be restarted. Hence I stopped using Zwift for workouts and just do rides.
ED209:
With the best will in the world, you're going to get very little out of such a vague approach. June is also fairly early, but not insurmountably so (which race out of interest?)
Without knowing your background, hard to give too much advice, but going long is all about base - you're probably riding 5-7hrs before you run: I'd work on using run volume for a lot of the 'base' building/endurance - it's more practical to run in the cold - getting those up to the 2+hr mark will help. Use focussed turbo sets (intervals), likely around 1-1.5hrs to build cycling muscle/power/speed in the winter, then transition to long rides outside as the weather allows. It's probably going to need some warm gloves and a lot of layers.
Doing real endurance work on the turbo is really a pipedream.. If you have a decent base fitness already, that's a help. You've also got the run up to the end of december when it's not really too bad out to build some base. Jan/Feb are the real dog months.
@Carl:
Yes and yes. Was similar to you - doing a little turbo work really made a huge difference; it really is almost impossible to replicate the structured intensity on the road. I had loads of base, but putting the turbo in added real power. Typically I'm (now) doing 2x1hr turbo sets, plus an endurance ride at the weekend (plus runs and swims). I certainly wouldn't drop the turbo work out, even in the summer.
Can't comment on specific models/price points, but any old trainer and a speed sensor will do. If you leave the trainer at the same resistance and change gear, speed is a great proxy for power (just establish threshold 'speed'), OR use something like trainerroad/zwift with their 'virtual power' implementations.
With the best will in the world, you're going to get very little out of such a vague approach. June is also fairly early, but not insurmountably so (which race out of interest?)
Without knowing your background, hard to give too much advice, but going long is all about base - you're probably riding 5-7hrs before you run: I'd work on using run volume for a lot of the 'base' building/endurance - it's more practical to run in the cold - getting those up to the 2+hr mark will help. Use focussed turbo sets (intervals), likely around 1-1.5hrs to build cycling muscle/power/speed in the winter, then transition to long rides outside as the weather allows. It's probably going to need some warm gloves and a lot of layers.
Doing real endurance work on the turbo is really a pipedream.. If you have a decent base fitness already, that's a help. You've also got the run up to the end of december when it's not really too bad out to build some base. Jan/Feb are the real dog months.
@Carl:
Yes and yes. Was similar to you - doing a little turbo work really made a huge difference; it really is almost impossible to replicate the structured intensity on the road. I had loads of base, but putting the turbo in added real power. Typically I'm (now) doing 2x1hr turbo sets, plus an endurance ride at the weekend (plus runs and swims). I certainly wouldn't drop the turbo work out, even in the summer.
Can't comment on specific models/price points, but any old trainer and a speed sensor will do. If you leave the trainer at the same resistance and change gear, speed is a great proxy for power (just establish threshold 'speed'), OR use something like trainerroad/zwift with their 'virtual power' implementations.
ED,
Just my 2p, but IMO if you get the right clothes, riding in Durham shouldn't be a bother. The other winter I was regularly riding at 0 degrees and it was fine - I just looked a bit like Scott of the lycra-Antartic.
I _did_ get a turbo, and used it a whopping 3 times. I was far more comfortable in layers than I was sat sweating in the kitchen on a turbo.
I used skull cap, neck buff, loads of layers on top, bibs, leg warmers, overshoes. If it was really old, you could do double leg warmer.
Just my 2p, but IMO if you get the right clothes, riding in Durham shouldn't be a bother. The other winter I was regularly riding at 0 degrees and it was fine - I just looked a bit like Scott of the lycra-Antartic.
I _did_ get a turbo, and used it a whopping 3 times. I was far more comfortable in layers than I was sat sweating in the kitchen on a turbo.
I used skull cap, neck buff, loads of layers on top, bibs, leg warmers, overshoes. If it was really old, you could do double leg warmer.
Some Gump said:
ED,
Just my 2p, but IMO if you get the right clothes, riding in Durham shouldn't be a bother. The other winter I was regularly riding at 0 degrees and it was fine - I just looked a bit like Scott of the lycra-Antartic.
I _did_ get a turbo, and used it a whopping 3 times. I was far more comfortable in layers than I was sat sweating in the kitchen on a turbo.
I used skull cap, neck buff, loads of layers on top, bibs, leg warmers, overshoes. If it was really old, you could do double leg warmer.
Cold doesn't bother me, wind, rain and the snow that sometimes lies for 3 months over winter up here does.Just my 2p, but IMO if you get the right clothes, riding in Durham shouldn't be a bother. The other winter I was regularly riding at 0 degrees and it was fine - I just looked a bit like Scott of the lycra-Antartic.
I _did_ get a turbo, and used it a whopping 3 times. I was far more comfortable in layers than I was sat sweating in the kitchen on a turbo.
I used skull cap, neck buff, loads of layers on top, bibs, leg warmers, overshoes. If it was really old, you could do double leg warmer.
I recently picked up a Neo and have been working through the first few weeks of the FTP builder program on Zwift.. I absolutely love it. Never thought I'd look forward to hopping on the trainer in the garage but I do. I love the other asspects of Zwift too but at the moment I'm just working on my own. I can see myself joining in on group rides or races in the future too once I've upped my FTP somewhere closer to 300W than 200W.
upsidedownmark said:
ED209:
@Carl:
Yes and yes. Was similar to you - doing a little turbo work really made a huge difference; it really is almost impossible to replicate the structured intensity on the road. I had loads of base, but putting the turbo in added real power. Typically I'm (now) doing 2x1hr turbo sets, plus an endurance ride at the weekend (plus runs and swims). I certainly wouldn't drop the turbo work out, even in the summer.
Can't comment on specific models/price points, but any old trainer and a speed sensor will do. If you leave the trainer at the same resistance and change gear, speed is a great proxy for power (just establish threshold 'speed'), OR use something like trainerroad/zwift with their 'virtual power' implementations.
Thanks, that's exactly the answer I was hoping for. I'm actually an MTB'er so increasing my power is perfect. Should be a nice break as well; midweek 3 x 1hr on the turbo through winter rather that in the dark / wet outdoors. @Carl:
Yes and yes. Was similar to you - doing a little turbo work really made a huge difference; it really is almost impossible to replicate the structured intensity on the road. I had loads of base, but putting the turbo in added real power. Typically I'm (now) doing 2x1hr turbo sets, plus an endurance ride at the weekend (plus runs and swims). I certainly wouldn't drop the turbo work out, even in the summer.
Can't comment on specific models/price points, but any old trainer and a speed sensor will do. If you leave the trainer at the same resistance and change gear, speed is a great proxy for power (just establish threshold 'speed'), OR use something like trainerroad/zwift with their 'virtual power' implementations.
esuuv said:
I've never used zwift very much - from what I can see its very pretty, and lets you ride with your friends / total strangers - all very clever but I don't see the point for structured training (maybe I missed that bit)
I use trainer road with a kickr, you get on - set the workout you want (there are ironman specific training plans) - and you just pedal / suffer / sweat until it tells you to stop.
Zwift has all of the functionality of TrainerRoad (i.e. structured sessions with power targets) but the big benefit for me is competing in races. I usually do the ZTR race on Tuesday and Thursday evenings (there are many others) and you get one hell of a workout. It's a great alternative to fixed interval sessions and the competitive element is quite addictive.I use trainer road with a kickr, you get on - set the workout you want (there are ironman specific training plans) - and you just pedal / suffer / sweat until it tells you to stop.
If you have Strava Premium you can get 2 months free on Zwift. It works flawlessly with a Kickr.
Surfr said:
I recently picked up a Neo and have been working through the first few weeks of the FTP builder program on Zwift.. I absolutely love it. Never thought I'd look forward to hopping on the trainer in the garage but I do. I love the other asspects of Zwift too but at the moment I'm just working on my own. I can see myself joining in on group rides or races in the future too once I've upped my FTP somewhere closer to 300W than 200W.
There's no better way to get race fit than...racing. Get stuck in now. It's great to see yourself progressing against others and not being dropped. Then you can look towards moving up a group.Gassing Station | Pedal Powered | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff