Streaming flac files - poor sound quality

[counterofbeans]

At the weekend I had my first experience of streaming flac files from my laptop to my hifi but I was very disappointed with the sound quality which was dull and a bit muddy.

I was streaming 96khz flac files to a logitech bluetooth adapter from my admittedly rather budget HP laptop.

Is the problem an inferior DAC in the laptop? If so how would I achieve an improvement at modest cost?

Many thanks for any advice, I'm new to this... (rolls eyes...)

[tankplanker]

Bluetooth is lossy, so its not the best method to stream audio. Bluetooth with something like APTX support on both ends of the connection is better.

Have you tried a digital connection like coax or spdif?

[mackie1]

As tank says, the default codec for bluetooth is lossy and somewhat worse than MP3 even. Best option would be to use a wifi based receiver like a Chromecast Audio which by all accounts has a decent DAC and analogue output but also supports digital optical out. It will play back your high quality FLAC files without any loss in quality.

[anonymous-user]

Have you tried a simple 3mm stereo jack to rca cable? It will still go though the onboard sound card but probably better than standard Bluetooth which your laptop undoubtedly has. HDMI out is another option.

ive just for one of these for steaming ALAC from my iPhone to an old stereo of mine

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B010DM7M8W/ref=pe_3857...

AirPlay is lossless but iOS doesn't play FLAC. Little gadget does support DLNA though.

Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 10th October 18:25

[counterofbeans]

Thanks for the responses, I appreciate the advice.

So I bought the wrong bit of kit, well no change there then...

I actually half expected cheap laptop plus flac files plus bluetooth streamer to sound as good as my £2k Roksan cd straight away...maybe I'm not quite ready for the 21st century yet.

Thanks again.

[tankplanker]

If the rest of your Hifi is as expensive then did you look at a dedicated streamer like the Linn Majik?

[Digitalize]

Get yourself a Chromecast Audio and some form of DAC, Cambridge Audio do a decent one for the money.

This will let you stream the digital FLAC file to the Chromecast, which decodes it and sends it via digital optical to the DAC, which then converts it to an analogue signal.

Your next hurdle might be that your network isn't fast enough to consistently stream high quality FLAC, so the easiest method is then to look at a wired network rather than wireless.

If you're already using iTunes one of the simplest methods is a cheap Mac Mini that's always on with the Cambridge DAC connected via USB, then use iTunes remote on your phone to control the music, this way the file is local and doesn't have to be streamed at all. There's cheaper ways like using a Raspberry Pi or a windows computer but it's all about ease of use I find.

Bluetooth is most definitely not the way to go.

In your current setup it's the DAC in the Bluetooth receiver that is doing the work. It might be improved if you got a receiver that could output a digital file to a standalone DAC but still with Bluetooth what's even the point? You're in the room, just plug it in.

[counterofbeans]

tankplanker said:

If the rest of your Hifi is as expensive then did you look at a dedicated streamer like the Linn Majik?

It is and no I didn't (not yet), this was just a dipping-of-the-toe into music streaming. I'm still very old tech (still wish I had my Pink Triangle!)

[tankplanker]

I'm not sure the WiFi performance will have any impact on Bluetooth streaming between a laptop and a Bluetooth receiver from FLAC source files that appear to be locally hosted on the laptop. Bluetooth by far is the weakest link here.

Some of the WiFi channels can interfere with some of the Bluetooth channels however this results in a choppy connection or no connection at all, not a muddy connection.

I don't really rate Chromecast for audio quality, its better than Bluetooth by miles but it is still limited to lossy audio codecs. It is not suitable if you are expecting a lossless output from quality lossless sources. Something like a Nvidia shield running Kodi or SMPC connected via HDMI to the amp would give you better quality as it can passthru the 24bit audio. The Shield would still be behind a dedicated high end streamer like the Linn.

[Digitalize]

Chromecast Audio supports 96KHz/24bit lossless, for £20. Add a DAC of your choosing and budget (Cambridge Audio Dacmagic is well reviewed and around £200) and for not a lot of money you've got an excellent way to listen to lossless audio wirelessly. Use something like Plex to store the music on a server or similar and then you can 'cast' the music using the app on your phone, control volume etc.

You can even buy multiple Chromecast Audio's and link them together so they all output the same feed, if you want to fill your house with music.

They really are brilliant little things.

[mackie1]

I'll add that you don't *need* an external DAC to go with the Chromecast Audio. The internal one works fine. I'd try one for a bit and then if you fancy spending the money get an external one. Ofcourse there are loads of other options but the CCA is so cheap and effective it'd be silly to overlook it.

P.S. I'm not being dismissive of high quality dedicated DACs (I have a Mojo myself) but it's not necessary to find out if a CCA will work for you.

[Digitalize]

Yeah that's true, you could just spend the cheap bit of the CCA and see if you like how it would work without having to then buy a DAC to get the most out of it.

[legzr1]

counterofbeans said:

It is and no I didn't (not yet), this was just a dipping-of-the-toe into music streaming. I'm still very old tech (still wish I had my Pink Triangle!)

Stick with it.

Since going streaming I've sold some decent CD players from Krell and MF and replaced with a £400 streamer from Cambridge Audio (end of line SM6). The internal DAC sounds excellent although I've kept an Audiosector NOS DAC for occasional 'critical' listening - to be honest, even that has sat unused for months.

The lack of FLAC support from Apple ruled out any of their offerings from the start (although I use iDevices to control the streamer and select music, create playlists etc).

I was sceptical at first but now I'm happy with the sound and ease of use - I've stored all my music on a NAS so the only time a PC gets booted up is when I need to rip another CD.

Digital inputs allow connections from Sky, TV etc - 48K streams from YouTube videos using the TV app sound surprisingly good.
Then there's the hundreds / thousands of Internet radio stations, some broadcasting in half decent 320K.

The CCA mentioned a few times above sounds an ideal way to test the water - I just jumped straight in and have been very pleasantly surprised. No regrets from someone who belittled this 'technology' years ago thinking there's no way it can match the SQ of a £3000 CD player

[Digitalize]

Apple have ALAC (Apple Lossless Audio Codec), it's open source and royalty free, so pretty much anything can play it, whereas Apple Devices do not support FLAC natively. So if wanting to take lossless with you, ALAC is a great choice. A bit overkill unless say your car has a full digital interface and it's own decent DACs, tuned soundstage etc.

[legzr1]

It was a simple choice for me - almost all streamers will handle ALAC and FLAC, apple choose not to support FLAC so it wasn't a difficult decision.

For me, this is less about portability - its more about being faced with around 1000 CDs that needed ripping and I wasn't about to tie myself into a (at the time) closed system.
I also don't fancy the prospect of re-ripping a Tb of audio files because of apples refusal to support FLAC.

I accept others may not share that view

[anonymous-user]

Digitalize said:

Apple have ALAC (Apple Lossless Audio Codec), it's open source and royalty free, so pretty much anything can play it, whereas Apple Devices do not support FLAC natively. So if wanting to take lossless with you, ALAC is a great choice. A bit overkill unless say your car has a full digital interface and it's own decent DACs, tuned soundstage etc.

This is the route I went. Bit the bullet and re-ripped all (about 30 years-worth) my CDs to ALAC last year. Everything plays it and I use KODI on my HTTPC, playing unprocessed digital through WASAPI-->HDMI into my AV amp. Spotify, Youtube etc plays the same way. Also means I get lossless music on my phone albeit through the standard iPhone DAC.

[tankplanker]

Digitalize said:

Chromecast Audio supports 96KHz/24bit lossless, for £20. .

That I did not know.

[Digitalize]

legzr1 said:

It was a simple choice for me - almost all streamers will handle ALAC and FLAC, apple choose not to support FLAC so it wasn't a difficult decision.

For me, this is less about portability - its more about being faced with around 1000 CDs that needed ripping and I wasn't about to tie myself into a (at the time) closed system.
I also don't fancy the prospect of re-ripping a Tb of audio files because of apples refusal to support FLAC.

I accept others may not share that view

Oh completely, I wouldn't re-rip or even convert FLAC to ALAC, there's no real need, however if I was starting again and used Apple devices/software (which I do) I'd thoroughly recommend ALAC.

The setup I'm talking about is actually what I did for my parents. NAS (Synology) storing all the music (along with a lot of other stuff) running Plex, CCA connected to a Dacmagic then in to a Naim system. All music ripped to ALAC using iTunes, meaning they can easily sync with iOS devices, along with being played via the Plex app when at home.

I never really started a physical music collection, so the majority of my stuff is 320kbps, it makes life easier, but it's nice to have access to Lossless on a decent system for when you really want to just listen to music.

[boxedin]

legzr1 said:

It was a simple choice for me - almost all streamers will handle ALAC and FLAC, apple choose not to support FLAC so it wasn't a difficult decision.

For me, this is less about portability - its more about being faced with around 1000 CDs that needed ripping and I wasn't about to tie myself into a (at the time) closed system.
I also don't fancy the prospect of re-ripping a Tb of audio files because of apples refusal to support FLAC.

I accept others may not share that view

If you want to convert FLAC to ALAC:
ffmpeg -v error -i <source_flac_filename> -c:a alac <new_alac_filename>

No re-encoding needed.

I used this to change 1000s of FLACs to ALAC on a NAS. Left it running for a couple of hours, done.

Edited by boxedin on Tuesday 11th October 18:11

[Digitalize]

boxxob said:

You could convert it on the fly. I used to do this with foobar and upnp plugins, such that where my FLAC archive wasn't supported by a streamer/player it would serve 320kbps CBR MP3. By using an up to date AAC encoder, at a HQ setting (say, >300kbps), I expect it to be almost lossless and the difference imperceptible.

If you can't tell the difference between 320kbps and Lossless you either don't have the equipment to take advantage of the better file, or you're one of the lucky ones who doesn't have 'audiophile ear'.