Boats - Where do you start?

[fridaypassion]

I've always had a passing interest in boats mainly contained to renting small motor boats on holiday. As our 3 kids are getting older we have been looking at buying a house abroad to save money on now very expensive holidays. For a number of reasons I wasnt really keen on the idea but it struck me that we might be able to keep a boat somewhere like Nidri, Greece or similar and use it as a holiday home.

The main hurdle I have to overcome is that I know nothing at all of the craft of sailing but its something I would be keen to learn. On previous olidays we have seen all kinds of boats including motor yachts and sailing boats. If we were moored in somewhere like Nidri in amongst the Greek isles I would think a motor would be ideal for us but then again in having the wind option would be something to learn and an interest to get the kids involved in as they get older too.

If anyone has a similar setup I'd be glad to hear of all the pitfalls/costs. Also an idea on where to start learning the necessary skills to safely drive one of the things!

[louiebaby]

Not a clue, but I'd start with a holiday with someone like this first, to see whether you like it:

http://www.neilson.co.uk/sailing

It's a thought for me in the future too, although I'm a solid 10 years behind you, looking forward to the advice from people who actually know.

[R8Steve]

How often would you go there on holiday would be my first question before going into the details of costs as that would be a big deciding factor.

What would be the budget for the boat purchase?

As has been suggested above, chartering a boat would probably be the most sensible thing to do first.

You can charter a boat for a week and have an RYA instructor on board that would be able to train you and your family up to competent crew/day skipper level. Once you have day skipper minimum you can apply for an ICC (international certificate of confidence) which would allow you to do barefoot charters or would be a good grounding to get your own boat.

Once you've given a boat budget i'll give you an idea of costs as boat type/size has a huge impact on annual expenses.

[fridaypassion]

Cheers Steve

We would be a very much lower end of things to start with. I'm seeing ones that might be suitable at about 30k ish. Before budget creep!

[PurpleTurtle]

As the old saying goes, "Two great days owning a boat, the day you buy it and the day you sell it"

Joking apart, I love the romantic notion of this too, but when considering cost of outright purchase/overseas mooring fees/insurance/maintenance plus flights/time to get out and use it enough to justify that outlay, I'd imagine it's a fairly spendy outcome that could get you a lot of luxury holidays?

[R8Steve]

fridaypassion said:

Cheers Steve

We would be a very much lower end of things to start with. I'm seeing ones that might be suitable at about 30k ish. Before budget creep!

With a budget of 30k i'll guess you're looking at something about 32 foot (power or sail).

Rough annual costs would be 3k euros for a berth, 300 for insurance, say 1k for basic maintenance (this could obviously be a lot more if anything major needs done). If you have a motorboat fuel is probably going to be your biggest expense. On a 32 foot motor boat you'll probably be looking at 2 engines, probably 4.3 V6's or 5.0 V8's which at full chat can consume up to 75 gallons of fuel an hour!

If it was me i'd get something like a jeanneau sun odyssey 32 and learn to sail, it'll be substantially cheaper and it is a lot more relaxing. If i was to give a downside for the yacht it would be that the accommodation is often slightly more cramped/poorly laid out in comparison to the motorboats.

Have you got any links of the ones that interest you?

If you are just going for 3/4 weeks a year chartering a yacht is going to be a much better option imo, if you're going to be there for 6-8 weeks and above buying the boat starts to make sense.

[R8Steve]

PurpleTurtle said:

As the old saying goes, "Two great days owning a boat, the day you buy it and the day you sell it"

And gets quoted on every thread about boats on here. Someone will be along to quote Felix Dennis in a minute as well.

The majority of boat owners will confirm that it's nonsense though.

[fat80b]

fridaypassion said:

The main hurdle I have to overcome is that I know nothing at all of the craft of sailing but its something I would be keen to learn....................

Also an idea on where to start learning the necessary skills to safely drive one of the things!

I would consider a sailing holiday as the first step - Sailingholidays.com being the one we have used a number of times. Others are available.

You don't need any formal training (although the wife and I did a weekend competent crew course first) to take part and by the end of a week's sailing, you'll feel like you know one end of the boat from another.

On the first one we did, there was a family where not a single one of them had set foot on a boat before....quite brave if you ask me but they made it round without incident.

With the flotilla based sailing hols, there is a lead boat with skipper and engineer on board and can radio them if anything goes wrong but you free to roam on your own in the daytimes. The skipper is at your destination to help you moor up so there is very little actual stress involved.

You spend your days going from bay to bay in crystal clear waters, chasing dolphins, having every night in a different harbour and sometimes a fair bit of wind to deal with (good fun).

We've done most of Greece this way and it can't be beaten as the way to see the Greek islands.

Bob

[Rangeroverover]

R8Steve said:

And gets quoted on every thread about boats on here. Someone will be along to quote Felix Dennis in a minute as well.

The majority of boat owners will confirm that it's nonsense though.

I used to work for Felix in the late 70s early 80s and stayed in touch with him up to his death, whats the quote?

Coolest thing Felix did was instruct the staff of his 11 houses round the globe to throw out every bit of electrical stuff, Tvs, videos, coffee machines, etc etc and replace them with identical models in each house so he would know how they worked and wouldn't have to worry about learning how the TV worked in each house

[R8Steve]

Rangeroverover said:

R8Steve said:

And gets quoted on every thread about boats on here. Someone will be along to quote Felix Dennis in a minute as well.

The majority of boat owners will confirm that it's nonsense though.

I used to work for Felix in the late 70s early 80s and stayed in touch with him up to his death, whats the quote?

Coolest thing Felix did was instruct the staff of his 11 houses round the globe to throw out every bit of electrical stuff, Tvs, videos, coffee machines, etc etc and replace them with identical models in each house so he would know how they worked and wouldn't have to worry about learning how the TV worked in each house

I bet that was interesting and you could tell a few stories!

'If it flies, floats or fornicates, always rent it' he said. It's usually quoted alongside the best days in boating quote.

[impetuous]

Rangeroverover said:

I used to work for Felix in the late 70s early 80s and stayed in touch with him up to his death, whats the quote?

Coolest thing Felix did was instruct the staff of his 11 houses round the globe to throw out every bit of electrical stuff, Tvs, videos, coffee machines, etc etc and replace them with identical models in each house so he would know how they worked and wouldn't have to worry about learning how the TV worked in each house

I like! His book "How to get rich" is the reason I can afford my little sailing boat (thread in this forum) ... thanks to one sentence he kept repeating, "Ownership, ownership, ownership".

+1 on request for more stories.

To reply to OP, I simply purchased a boat and spent money on a local instructor for 1-2-1 tuition.

Sailing books utterly confused me, but to be shown an action in the real world, or have it explained, worked.

Perhaps a local sailing club has an instructor who could take you out for the day? Hanging out at the club bar later may also be a learning experience.

[fridaypassion]

fat80b said:

I would consider a sailing holiday as the first step - Sailingholidays.com being the one we have used a number of times. Others are available.

You don't need any formal training (although the wife and I did a weekend competent crew course first) to take part and by the end of a week's sailing, you'll feel like you know one end of the boat from another.

On the first one we did, there was a family where not a single one of them had set foot on a boat before....quite brave if you ask me but they made it round without incident.

With the flotilla based sailing hols, there is a lead boat with skipper and engineer on board and can radio them if anything goes wrong but you free to roam on your own in the daytimes. The skipper is at your destination to help you moor up so there is very little actual stress involved.

You spend your days going from bay to bay in crystal clear waters, chasing dolphins, having every night in a different harbour and sometimes a fair bit of wind to deal with (good fun).

We've done most of Greece this way and it can't be beaten as the way to see the Greek islands.

Bob

Yes this would be great its something we almost booked about 6 years ago but kids came along (all three of them!) and we are just getting the youngest to 2 1/2 now. Hopefully by mid next year they should be old enough to enjoy the experience themselves.

Funnily enough it was seeing the sunseekers around places like Nidri that set me off a few years back.

Is there a sensible minimum age for kids?

[SeeFive]

The biggest pitfall for me on owning a boat is finding the time to use it and get value from what is a significant investment. I sold mine as I rarely used it due to family commitments, but my life is different 15 years on, so will be getting another small one soon(ish).

In between, I briefly considered sticking a 30odd footer in the med on a Sleazyjet route to use as a bolt hole from time to time. Again, it was clear that it wouldn't get the use and worked out just too greedy an investment for what was mostly my enjoyment. So we did some nice holidays which frankly worked out much cheaper than owning a sizeable boat and provided far more variety and luxury.

I recently did some fairly realistic figures on 28-30 foot single engine sports cruisers at a budget of around 30k to buy. Moorings were in the UK though. My 5 year TCO including fuel, marina moorings, maintenance (but not major engine / leg / hull work and upgrades) and insurance etc was around 250% of purchase price, not including depreciation.

So my advice would be to make sure you really want a boat and can use it regularly to get value from it, and that you are happy to holiday in the same cramped caravan-like facilities over and over again in the same place. Personally, I wouldn't want that to be my annual holiday(s).

My next tub will be moored right outside my door waiting for whenever the weather makes me want to use it, increasing fuel use but the massive carbon emission should improve the south coast weather over time - according to some

[Simpo Two]

SeeFive said:

The biggest pitfall for me on owning a boat is finding the time to use it and get value from what is a significant investment. I sold mine as I rarely used it due to family commitments, but my life is different 15 years on, so will be getting another small one soon(ish).

One of the keys is having a family that like it too! No point having a boating widow at home...

SeeFive said:

So my advice would be to make sure you really want a boat and can use it regularly to get value from it, and that you are happy to holiday in the same cramped caravan-like facilities over and over again in the same place. Personally, I wouldn't want that to be my annual holiday(s).

My boat is about 70 mins away by road but I don't 'holiday' on it - it's used for days and weekends many times throughout the year. But I agree that anyone considering a boat needs to allow for overall running costs and divide that by the likely usage. My annual cost is about 4% of the boat value and it's a much better 'toy' than the sports car that it repaced

[SeeFive]

Simpo Two said:

SeeFive said:

The biggest pitfall for me on owning a boat is finding the time to use it and get value from what is a significant investment. I sold mine as I rarely used it due to family commitments, but my life is different 15 years on, so will be getting another small one soon(ish).

One of the keys is having a family that like it too! No point having a boating widow at home...

SeeFive said:

So my advice would be to make sure you really want a boat and can use it regularly to get value from it, and that you are happy to holiday in the same cramped caravan-like facilities over and over again in the same place. Personally, I wouldn't want that to be my annual holiday(s).

My boat is about 70 mins away by road but I don't 'holiday' on it - it's used for days and weekends many times throughout the year. But I agree that anyone considering a boat needs to allow for overall running costs and divide that by the likely usage. My annual cost is about 4% of the boat value and it's a much better 'toy' than the sports car that it repaced

Fully agree about the boating widow. She was not that keen after a while, got a bit sick now and then and the kids got very sick. So really, it was just me benefitting. The new missus is a natural. Hired a small boat and went out around Poole Harbour a few weeks ago, and she is brilliant at the helm. MOB, nose on circling a buoy, anchoring and general helm and observation all spot on immediately. We will have a ball when we find the right boat, I can just sit back and drink

4% a year! Wow, that is impressive. Is it a rag and stick with a 30hp diesel on a swinging mooring maybe? Or maybe you either have a very expensive and very short boat to get marina mooring fees at 4% of boat value, before you look at fuel and annual maintenance.

Moorings here are about £5k a year for a 30 footer. Haulout and annual maintenance IRO £1.5k plus lift wash and relaunch another 2 times a year to keep it planing, plus antifoul and general bits etc. Then there is fuel... A crazy amount of money at marina fuel prices, but I will use it a LOT summer and winter - and sometimes going quite quickly at many GPH on longer trips. My spreadsheet is showing around £14-15k a year on a 30k high use boat all in (except major disasters like new engines, legs and osmosis on a boat of the age I am considering). And I hear osmosis can be more likely in warmer waters where the OP is looking. To base his floating holiday home, so a worry.

The last boat I had here although with a much lighter fuel bill (5 times a year very short, non-sick making trips) was in the area of £7.5k a year all in, adding very little for fuel.

[Simpo Two]

SeeFive said:

4% a year! Wow, that is impressive. Is it a rag and stick with a 30hp diesel on a swinging mooring maybe? Or maybe you either have a very expensive and very short boat to get marina mooring fees at 4% of boat value, before you look at fuel and annual maintenance.

Teehee, I have some advantages. I'm inland where moorings are much cheaper (£50/foot for a decent marina and that's after a recent 6% price increase). Secondly, I bought the boat new at a silly price so although it's 4 years old it's still worth more than I paid for it. Thirdly it has a 40hp diesel inboard, fourthly it's Coppercoated so stays in the water operational all year! Annual cost (river licence, mooring, insurance, fuel) about £2,200.

[SeeFive]

Simpo Two said:

SeeFive said:

4% a year! Wow, that is impressive. Is it a rag and stick with a 30hp diesel on a swinging mooring maybe? Or maybe you either have a very expensive and very short boat to get marina mooring fees at 4% of boat value, before you look at fuel and annual maintenance.

Teehee, I have some advantages. I'm inland where moorings are much cheaper (£50/foot for a decent marina and that's after a recent 6% price increase). Secondly, I bought the boat new at a silly price so although it's 4 years old it's still worth more than I paid for it. Thirdly it has a 40hp diesel inboard, fourthly it's Coppercoated so stays in the water operational all year! Annual cost (river licence, mooring, insurance, fuel) about £2,200.

Chalk and cheese indeed. We still have to lift out and wash regularly on coppercoat down here. Years ago, we had a boatscrubber in the marina, kind of an underwater car brush wash setup, but long gone now. But good luck to ya

It can be very nice on the river. I had a boat on the non-tidal Thames (Walton) with my dad in '76, and that long hot summer we probably spent more on sun cream than we did on the boat costs. Happy days indeed, and not as choppy and bumpy as the Solent / Channel can be.

[Simpo Two]

SeeFive said:

Chalk and cheese indeed. We still have to lift out and wash regularly on coppercoat down here.

It doesn't work particularly well IMHO. I go around the sides each spring with a broom to get the worst off and under that there's a rough, very hard layer that won't budge. But as I only do 4-6mph it doesn't really matter. If I was buying it again I'd stay with the factory epoxy.

What the river really needs is a boat wash - like those Lithuanians carwashes you see outside Homebase, only for boats.