DONE TO DEATH, but, what about the transmission???
Discussion
Hi all, I know the subject of turbo/super charging and the merits of such extra power over traditional tuning power/£, but as I'm in the similar process of many on here considering my future plans with my 450, I'm wondering about our transmissions - can they handle the power levels of the chargers offer? Are you better off with the more conservative power levels generated by naturally aspirated upgrades? I guessing around the magical 300bhp levels.
I've been looking at the likes of the Powers turbo charger upgrade, so I'm assuming 350-380bhp with an enormous increase in torque - perhaps the biggest threat.
My car's a keeper, it's just I don't want to spend its life constantly chasing it's tail fixing and upgrading bits due to the huge extra power levels created by those LOVELY chargers.
Adrian
I've been looking at the likes of the Powers turbo charger upgrade, so I'm assuming 350-380bhp with an enormous increase in torque - perhaps the biggest threat.
My car's a keeper, it's just I don't want to spend its life constantly chasing it's tail fixing and upgrading bits due to the huge extra power levels created by those LOVELY chargers.
Adrian
bobfather said:
I don't have forced induction but the regularly reported weak points are
Engine mounts
5th & reverse gear components
Diff bushes
Half shaft
You need to factor in some additional maintenance costs going forward
All valid points but you've then got to deal with issues like crankcase pressurisation and ultimately accept engine life is never going to be anything other than shorter, especially if you're boosting your existing lump with some miles on it. By far the best way to go forced induction is to build a forced induction ready engine, this approach will pretty much future proof the project but add the blower and I'd be surprised if there was much change from £10k.Engine mounts
5th & reverse gear components
Diff bushes
Half shaft
You need to factor in some additional maintenance costs going forward
On the other hand you could just throw half that figure into a nice 300hp engine build and focus on making it a lovely smooth and super reliable engine that'll serve you for years to come. It's not a sexy approach like adding a blower, but while sensible decisions are seldom sexy they do typically end up paying dividends in the end.
Having become very exited and tempted by forced induction I'm now swinging towards the idea of a nice naturally aspirated engine build when 'Ol Gasbag' needs a new mill.
I've got a nice N/A 4.6 engine in my car, other than a long fast racetrack I find it more than fast enough in almost all circumstances and I love it.
I took mine to 150mph on a runway with a crushed air intake pipe!! how fast do you want to go.
There's no doubt the extra power of forced induction makes the car even faster but if you put the same driver in a N/a car around the average Brit racetrack then put him in a forced induction car the times will be similar. You can't get the power down any sooner and you'll gain a few yards by the end of the straight, it will feel massively faster but the reality is it won't be as far away as the big numbers of FI might suggest.
Turbos are for people with an inferiority complex
joke honest 
Come on you turbo boys tell me I'm wrong then go and prove it.
Tongue in cheek because I'm actually jeolous
I took mine to 150mph on a runway with a crushed air intake pipe!! how fast do you want to go.
There's no doubt the extra power of forced induction makes the car even faster but if you put the same driver in a N/a car around the average Brit racetrack then put him in a forced induction car the times will be similar. You can't get the power down any sooner and you'll gain a few yards by the end of the straight, it will feel massively faster but the reality is it won't be as far away as the big numbers of FI might suggest.
Turbos are for people with an inferiority complex
joke honest Come on you turbo boys tell me I'm wrong then go and prove it.
Tongue in cheek because I'm actually jeolous
Agreed with the points regarding a potentially shorter engine life but if you make certain the basics are right first then there's no reason a forced induction RV8 can't be a reliable long term prosoect, especially if it's well managed. But to explore the benefits only in terms of outright speed or tenths around a track misses the point, many people comment but few have actually driven one. The feel of immediate response and silky smoothness cannot be quantified in tenths or yards but it takes the experience of driving a Chim to another level altogether, whether your plodding around town or blasting along an A road. I've had our car now through so many guises from 230bhp 4 litre to it's present 450 (and as much torque) and everywhere inbetween so I do speak from experience. The gearbox and diff have both been opened up and examined today (by coincidence) and passed as fit and healthy (72k miles).
motul1974 said:
Hi all, I know the subject of turbo/super charging and the merits of such extra power over traditional tuning power/£, but as I'm in the similar process of many on here considering my future plans with my 450, I'm wondering about our transmissions - can they handle the power levels of the chargers offer? Are you better off with the more conservative power levels generated by naturally aspirated upgrades? I guessing around the magical 300bhp levels.
I've been looking at the likes of the Powers turbo charger upgrade, so I'm assuming 350-380bhp with an enormous increase in torque - perhaps the biggest threat.
My car's a keeper, it's just I don't want to spend its life constantly chasing it's tail fixing and upgrading bits due to the huge extra power levels created by those LOVELY chargers.
Adrian
I'll let you know in Feb/March 17 I've been looking at the likes of the Powers turbo charger upgrade, so I'm assuming 350-380bhp with an enormous increase in torque - perhaps the biggest threat.
My car's a keeper, it's just I don't want to spend its life constantly chasing it's tail fixing and upgrading bits due to the huge extra power levels created by those LOVELY chargers.
Adrian
this is just my experience and does not necessarily reflect all cars we started out with a total rebuild of the car you can see all that was done in the thread of the rebuild supercharged 4.0 ltr around 380bhp with nearly 400 ftlbs torque gearbox is an lt77 with gkn diff and standard drive shafts first to go was the ap racing clutch cooked at santa pod car managed 12.2 then later on broke a drive shaft now has uprated versions then the prop shaft has been uprated to a massive unit and finally diff went still drove but had cooked the limited slip we are now going to install a tremec box as the lt77 is still fine but the ratios dont really suit the car first is way to low and so on this car is used hard track days 1/4 mile blasts etc. but if you have the power why not use it as for track times as was illuded to belive me they are substantially different over a standard car nick can lap me at snett in about 7 laps me in a standard 4.0ltr chim and as others will attest to not far of the big engined 5.0ltr boys
john
john
Ok, so it does sound like n/a should be kinder to the cars, it's just so tempting to go the easy power route created by forced induction. I wondering though, I don't need bragging power levels, so a circa 350 is plenty enough. It does seem a little all or nothing - slap your charger on and get HUGE increases. How about using them to gain conservative levels whilst maintaining drivability?
I already believe that a replacement ecu is the way forward, if not for anything else other than its ability to make our car's more enjoyable, so that's already a plan for early next year, so it's the decision to go either n/a or FI route. I'm getting the general impression from this and other topics that a nice N/A is likely to cause me less headaches and future expenses.I just don't want to be paying for gear boxes, shafts, diffs etc
Maybe little head work, cam if it needs it (although drive great, so maybe not) decat and a sexy inlet manifold.......BUT, all that lots would cost probably more than a lovely charger! :-/ lol
I already believe that a replacement ecu is the way forward, if not for anything else other than its ability to make our car's more enjoyable, so that's already a plan for early next year, so it's the decision to go either n/a or FI route. I'm getting the general impression from this and other topics that a nice N/A is likely to cause me less headaches and future expenses.I just don't want to be paying for gear boxes, shafts, diffs etc
Maybe little head work, cam if it needs it (although drive great, so maybe not) decat and a sexy inlet manifold.......BUT, all that lots would cost probably more than a lovely charger! :-/ lol
Hi Adrian
I know many on here are always chasing performance, something we all want which is why we buy a performance car
.
IMHO and running my Chimaera 500 road use only for over 10 years I don't think I have yearned for anything more than the 300bhp and low down grunt on more than perhaps 2 occasions.. Most of my tinkering time goes on keeping eveything in the sweet spot and believe that if I was to tune beyond this point the car would become less of a package and the weak points, instead of being character would become a frustrating flaw.
I think the biggest advantage of FI is cost and if looking for a bit more grunt this must be the way to go. If concerned regarding drive train reliability then perhaps it is just a case of turning down the pressure, alternativly employing a smooth driving technique will relieve the stress in all components which after all as you know is the only way to drive a high performance car. Probably the reason why it is almost impossible to buy anything with a manual transmission these days in anything high performance is to stop the abuse of the drivtrain.
Obviousley track work – sprints – drag racing is something entirley different and have seen low powerd cars rip out a transmission after several standing starts, so even safe stuff does not like a heavy hand, or foot.
Good luck whatever way you go
I know many on here are always chasing performance, something we all want which is why we buy a performance car
.
IMHO and running my Chimaera 500 road use only for over 10 years I don't think I have yearned for anything more than the 300bhp and low down grunt on more than perhaps 2 occasions.. Most of my tinkering time goes on keeping eveything in the sweet spot and believe that if I was to tune beyond this point the car would become less of a package and the weak points, instead of being character would become a frustrating flaw.
I think the biggest advantage of FI is cost and if looking for a bit more grunt this must be the way to go. If concerned regarding drive train reliability then perhaps it is just a case of turning down the pressure, alternativly employing a smooth driving technique will relieve the stress in all components which after all as you know is the only way to drive a high performance car. Probably the reason why it is almost impossible to buy anything with a manual transmission these days in anything high performance is to stop the abuse of the drivtrain.
Obviousley track work – sprints – drag racing is something entirley different and have seen low powerd cars rip out a transmission after several standing starts, so even safe stuff does not like a heavy hand, or foot.
Good luck whatever way you go
Absolutely, it's a fair point. I'm not looking to do quarter mile sprints, just merely enjoy more power. Other than the transmission question, I left wondering would FI negatively effect the cars character, and a character they would probably be increase with the use of N/A tuning.....just another thought??
motul1974 said:
Absolutely, it's a fair point. I'm not looking to do quarter mile sprints, just merely enjoy more power. Other than the transmission question, I left wondering would FI negatively effect the cars character, and a character they would probably be increase with the use of N/A tuning.....just another thought??
To be honest this is where I am myself - apart from the fact that I *STILL* don't have mine back on the road yet (getting on for two years now but who's counting) she's been rebuilt as a 5 litre rather than a 4 so I'm hoping that a fresh 'mildly warmed over' 5 litre will be sufficiently "yeeeeeeehaaaa!" over a 160,000 mile old 4 litre (and two years of trundling around in a crappy 1.6 fat arse Renault Megane) to satisfy my desires.However one of my requirements for the new engine was that it was also to be able to handle the planned future addition of a little low pressure supercharging should I decide to go that route once the basic engine has had a good shakedown for a few months and a few thousand miles...
Actually - what I really want to know is just how many of the "scary" stories you hear about straight-line-in-the-dry wheelspin on 5 litre TVRs are actually realistic ... now if you can break the back end loose in second in the dry when rolling I'll be happy.
Phil
Edited by Bassfiendnoideawhathp on Thursday 10th November 15:43
My n/a 450 has
300 Bhp
350 ft lb torque
I could maybe get 325 Bhp if I went for bigger trumpets 72 mm plenum and removed the Catt
But I'd hardly notice it unless revving the bugger to death. For me it's got plenty of torque and that is where the thrill is IMHO
Even with these low numbers I can't get the power down unless I'm on a very smooth road and bone dry, so I just wonder how often I'd use the extra power of FI
The few FI cars I've witnessed sound very very smooth but it takes away from that roar feel the N/A engines tend to give you which to my mind is half the character of the car. It's all in the eye of the beholder of course.
Why do people who own FI cars feel the need to defend themselves?
FI is not cheaper, you will over time spend far more than a tuned N/a engine and have a lot more to deal with.
It's great and offers big power gains bit saying it's cheaper than a cam and tune up with a bit of head work thrown in is nonsense.
Then you need to rebuild stuff that will break and if you get 400 torques it will break at some point.
Ridiculous to suggest anything else IMO.
N/A can and will break drive shafts, just ask Jackson 4 and Phazed.
I've witnessed a number of people with FI cars and they treat them with kid gloves at tracks,, why!
I'm in and out on track pretty much as I feel, they limit their runs and have to wait to let the lot cool down for far longer.
I like FI but let's not kid ourselves.
If you've got deep pockets non of this means s
t, but hey not everyone can afford the risk.
You'll need oil coolers etc, add it up.
I'm not trying to upset anyone, I'm being very very realistic!
300 Bhp
350 ft lb torque
I could maybe get 325 Bhp if I went for bigger trumpets 72 mm plenum and removed the Catt
But I'd hardly notice it unless revving the bugger to death. For me it's got plenty of torque and that is where the thrill is IMHO
Even with these low numbers I can't get the power down unless I'm on a very smooth road and bone dry, so I just wonder how often I'd use the extra power of FI
The few FI cars I've witnessed sound very very smooth but it takes away from that roar feel the N/A engines tend to give you which to my mind is half the character of the car. It's all in the eye of the beholder of course.
Why do people who own FI cars feel the need to defend themselves?
FI is not cheaper, you will over time spend far more than a tuned N/a engine and have a lot more to deal with.
It's great and offers big power gains bit saying it's cheaper than a cam and tune up with a bit of head work thrown in is nonsense.
Then you need to rebuild stuff that will break and if you get 400 torques it will break at some point.
Ridiculous to suggest anything else IMO.
N/A can and will break drive shafts, just ask Jackson 4 and Phazed.
I've witnessed a number of people with FI cars and they treat them with kid gloves at tracks,, why!
I'm in and out on track pretty much as I feel, they limit their runs and have to wait to let the lot cool down for far longer.
I like FI but let's not kid ourselves.
If you've got deep pockets non of this means s
t, but hey not everyone can afford the risk.You'll need oil coolers etc, add it up.
I'm not trying to upset anyone, I'm being very very realistic!
motul1974 said:
I'm SOLD ClassiChimi! I've not been around any charged car's so clearly no idea about them other than the power they produce.....but I'm guessing now it's not without it's costs.
So what have you done to achieve the magic 300 in yours?
I'm told that I should 'expect' 320hp/350ftlbs from mine (when it's eventually finished) ... 45mm inlet manifolds and trumpets, 72mm plenum, crower cam, vectra injectors, 5 litre bottom end, heads with biggest valves without going for oversized seats (can't remember the sizes offhand but nothing silly) - not sure how realistic that is.So what have you done to achieve the magic 300 in yours?
Phil
ClassiChimi said:
My n/a 450 has
300 Bhp
350 ft lb torque
I could maybe get 325 Bhp if I went for bigger trumpets 72 mm plenum and removed the Catt
But I'd hardly notice it unless revving the bugger to death. For me it's got plenty of torque and that is where the thrill is IMHO
Even with these low numbers I can't get the power down unless I'm on a very smooth road and bone dry, so I just wonder how often I'd use the extra power of FI
The few FI cars I've witnessed sound very very smooth but it takes away from that roar feel the N/A engines tend to give you which to my mind is half the character of the car. It's all in the eye of the beholder of course.
Why do people who own FI cars feel the need to defend themselves?
FI is not cheaper, you will over time spend far more than a tuned N/a engine and have a lot more to deal with.
It's great and offers big power gains bit saying it's cheaper than a cam and tune up with a bit of head work thrown in is nonsense.
Then you need to rebuild stuff that will break and if you get 400 torques it will break at some point.
Ridiculous to suggest anything else IMO.
N/A can and will break drive shafts, just ask Jackson 4 and Phazed.
I've witnessed a number of people with FI cars and they treat them with kid gloves at tracks,, why!
I'm in and out on track pretty much as I feel, they limit their runs and have to wait to let the lot cool down for far longer.
I like FI but let's not kid ourselves.
If you've got deep pockets non of this means st, but hey not everyone can afford the risk.
You'll need oil coolers etc, add it up.
I'm not trying to upset anyone, I'm being very very realistic!
I,m with you on this Alun and would like to add that for road use cannot see any reason for wanting more power, 90% of the time cannot find the space to deploy what I have now. You say modest 300bhp, but these are very light cars, only exotic machinery on the road makes more in bhp/ton300 Bhp
350 ft lb torque
I could maybe get 325 Bhp if I went for bigger trumpets 72 mm plenum and removed the Catt
But I'd hardly notice it unless revving the bugger to death. For me it's got plenty of torque and that is where the thrill is IMHO
Even with these low numbers I can't get the power down unless I'm on a very smooth road and bone dry, so I just wonder how often I'd use the extra power of FI
The few FI cars I've witnessed sound very very smooth but it takes away from that roar feel the N/A engines tend to give you which to my mind is half the character of the car. It's all in the eye of the beholder of course.
Why do people who own FI cars feel the need to defend themselves?
FI is not cheaper, you will over time spend far more than a tuned N/a engine and have a lot more to deal with.
It's great and offers big power gains bit saying it's cheaper than a cam and tune up with a bit of head work thrown in is nonsense.
Then you need to rebuild stuff that will break and if you get 400 torques it will break at some point.
Ridiculous to suggest anything else IMO.
N/A can and will break drive shafts, just ask Jackson 4 and Phazed.
I've witnessed a number of people with FI cars and they treat them with kid gloves at tracks,, why!
I'm in and out on track pretty much as I feel, they limit their runs and have to wait to let the lot cool down for far longer.
I like FI but let's not kid ourselves.
If you've got deep pockets non of this means s
t, but hey not everyone can afford the risk.You'll need oil coolers etc, add it up.
I'm not trying to upset anyone, I'm being very very realistic!
Like you, its the 350 torques from as little as 2400rpm that make it a brute
Do not have any facts but have thought that FI would be a lot cheaper to get a 400 to 300bhp than engine mods only because of the amount of work :-
Cam
Pocketed pistons
72mm intake
Head work with enlarged valves
That list in parts only should pay for FI, if paying for installation then FI must be less than 25% cheaper ?
Also for consideration does FI change the noise.
Andy
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