Anyone in the Nursery Business?
Discussion
I've got my son in Nursery, and had an email yesterday about their latest plan to squeeze more money out of me. They're asking for feedback...
Their first plan is to stop term-time only places, which means I'll be paying them for 10 weeks a year when my parents are looking after him. Thanks.
But what I found really interesting is that they're considering funding options for the Governments new 30 hours free policy. Firstly they want to only offer it where the child is in Nursery full time and then only offer 11 free hours.
I understand that the rate the Government pay is lower than rate I'm paying, so wasn't expecting 30 hours. However a quick google suggests under the current scheme the Nursery gets £4.89 an hour, compared to the £5.20 an hour I'm paying them. The new system will vary the rate more, so they might get a lower rate than at present, however they'd need to only get £1.90 an hour to justify the 11 hours.
I don't understand why the funding can't be applied regardless of the hours the child is in the Nursery either, especially as applying it to a hugely reduced number of hours appears to generate huge profits for them.
My expectation was that they would credit my account with 30 * £rate each week and I would pay the difference, so there would be no impact on the Nursery at all.
Does anyone work in the sector with some insight, or can explain whether I'm missing something?
Their first plan is to stop term-time only places, which means I'll be paying them for 10 weeks a year when my parents are looking after him. Thanks.
But what I found really interesting is that they're considering funding options for the Governments new 30 hours free policy. Firstly they want to only offer it where the child is in Nursery full time and then only offer 11 free hours.
I understand that the rate the Government pay is lower than rate I'm paying, so wasn't expecting 30 hours. However a quick google suggests under the current scheme the Nursery gets £4.89 an hour, compared to the £5.20 an hour I'm paying them. The new system will vary the rate more, so they might get a lower rate than at present, however they'd need to only get £1.90 an hour to justify the 11 hours.
I don't understand why the funding can't be applied regardless of the hours the child is in the Nursery either, especially as applying it to a hugely reduced number of hours appears to generate huge profits for them.
My expectation was that they would credit my account with 30 * £rate each week and I would pay the difference, so there would be no impact on the Nursery at all.
Does anyone work in the sector with some insight, or can explain whether I'm missing something?
Hi Paul,
I used to have a Nursery up until last year and can help clear up a couple of the points. On the term time only places that is also something that we used to offer early on however it became impossible to manage in the end due to the fact that you could not easily employ staff only in term time and therefore you are stuck with an over staffed Nursery in all the holidays also once the Nursery became busy its not profitable to have your Nursery only part filled in all the Holidays as a lot of people want to take up that option if its available.
On the government funding, we are in Scotland so it might be different however the Council would not allow us to charge anything for the free hours as they had to be completely free to the child therefore we lost out significantly for every child that was in Nursery under the free places scheme so even though it makes sense to just reduce 30 hours care to parents so they just pay the difference they may not be allowed to and therefore will just not offer it at all if they have enough demand to fill the Nursery anyway or as what they seem to be doing offer a reduced amount of hours.
You probably think the Nursery is making a fortune and just profiteering however this may not be the case, we made a reasonable profit out of it but the stress levels were sky high and the hours that me and my Wife put in were huge which is why we sold it in the end as it just was not worth the hassle.
I used to have a Nursery up until last year and can help clear up a couple of the points. On the term time only places that is also something that we used to offer early on however it became impossible to manage in the end due to the fact that you could not easily employ staff only in term time and therefore you are stuck with an over staffed Nursery in all the holidays also once the Nursery became busy its not profitable to have your Nursery only part filled in all the Holidays as a lot of people want to take up that option if its available.
On the government funding, we are in Scotland so it might be different however the Council would not allow us to charge anything for the free hours as they had to be completely free to the child therefore we lost out significantly for every child that was in Nursery under the free places scheme so even though it makes sense to just reduce 30 hours care to parents so they just pay the difference they may not be allowed to and therefore will just not offer it at all if they have enough demand to fill the Nursery anyway or as what they seem to be doing offer a reduced amount of hours.
You probably think the Nursery is making a fortune and just profiteering however this may not be the case, we made a reasonable profit out of it but the stress levels were sky high and the hours that me and my Wife put in were huge which is why we sold it in the end as it just was not worth the hassle.
Thanks, that's really useful.
I don't think the nursery is necessarily making loads of money and I get the term-time only bit. Though they did say that it worked for them as they could employ staff with school aged children that only wanted to work term-time. They are limited by their building capacity though I guess, so having it full all the time is more profitable. It's not a nursery that's been anything other than popular over a long time though.
Maybe it's different in Scotland, but I think it's fairly common for nursery's to do a cash equivalent from what I've seen. Just don't understand how that would mean 11 hours rather than 30.
Thanks again!
I don't think the nursery is necessarily making loads of money and I get the term-time only bit. Though they did say that it worked for them as they could employ staff with school aged children that only wanted to work term-time. They are limited by their building capacity though I guess, so having it full all the time is more profitable. It's not a nursery that's been anything other than popular over a long time though.
Maybe it's different in Scotland, but I think it's fairly common for nursery's to do a cash equivalent from what I've seen. Just don't understand how that would mean 11 hours rather than 30.
Thanks again!
aww999 said:
I think the 30 free hours only apply during term-time weeks. So you get approx. 900 free hours, spread over 52 weeks, which is 17.3 hrs/week. It sounds like they may have scaled that down to take account of the lesser rate that the government pays.
I discovered that and did some digging, it's 30 hours x 38 weeks, which comes in at a smidge under 22 hours a week. Which they've then halved.My hourly rate of £5.20 is actually lower too, I checked that, it's £4.70 an hour, the extra 50p is for food and snacks which are charged separately, and I would still have to pay this. So now it looks like there's not much difference at all between the funding amount and the charge I'm paying. Certainly no obvious justification for halving the provision.
We can have the full free hours, but only for some limited number of hours a day, which doesn't cover a full day for us. I think we have to take them over 3 days. Term time only but we're not teachers and have no significant parental cover. We're charged for the hours outside the free ones, charged for food, key fobs, "special" activities, etc, etc.
cerbfan said:
Hi Paul,
I used to have a Nursery up until last year and can help clear up a couple of the points. On the term time only places that is also something that we used to offer early on however it became impossible to manage in the end due to the fact that you could not easily employ staff only in term time and therefore you are stuck with an over staffed Nursery in all the holidays also once the Nursery became busy its not profitable to have your Nursery only part filled in all the Holidays as a lot of people want to take up that option if its available.
On the government funding, we are in Scotland so it might be different however the Council would not allow us to charge anything for the free hours as they had to be completely free to the child therefore we lost out significantly for every child that was in Nursery under the free places scheme so even though it makes sense to just reduce 30 hours care to parents so they just pay the difference they may not be allowed to and therefore will just not offer it at all if they have enough demand to fill the Nursery anyway or as what they seem to be doing offer a reduced amount of hours.
You probably think the Nursery is making a fortune and just profiteering however this may not be the case, we made a reasonable profit out of it but the stress levels were sky high and the hours that me and my Wife put in were huge which is why we sold it in the end as it just was not worth the hassle.
My mother runs two nurseries, and Cerbfan's quote is spot on (although I will ask her about how she approaches the government funding bit, as I don't really know). I used to have a Nursery up until last year and can help clear up a couple of the points. On the term time only places that is also something that we used to offer early on however it became impossible to manage in the end due to the fact that you could not easily employ staff only in term time and therefore you are stuck with an over staffed Nursery in all the holidays also once the Nursery became busy its not profitable to have your Nursery only part filled in all the Holidays as a lot of people want to take up that option if its available.
On the government funding, we are in Scotland so it might be different however the Council would not allow us to charge anything for the free hours as they had to be completely free to the child therefore we lost out significantly for every child that was in Nursery under the free places scheme so even though it makes sense to just reduce 30 hours care to parents so they just pay the difference they may not be allowed to and therefore will just not offer it at all if they have enough demand to fill the Nursery anyway or as what they seem to be doing offer a reduced amount of hours.
You probably think the Nursery is making a fortune and just profiteering however this may not be the case, we made a reasonable profit out of it but the stress levels were sky high and the hours that me and my Wife put in were huge which is why we sold it in the end as it just was not worth the hassle.
If you run a year round nursery, your costs are year-round, and it simply does not work to have the children in term-time only. However, offering termtime only nurseries (i.e. a traditional school) is no longer commercially viable, as most places are year-round. And nursery staff (typically young women) are incredibly flaky. You need to staff with people at a higher rate with qualifications, for a full year's employment. Frankly the sort of woman who fancies being an unqualified nursery teacher during termtime only has (36 years of experience has taught us this) little commitment to turning up on time, every day, or taking any extra responsibility, or even taking a special interest in the children, who are what really matter in all of this. Good staff cost good money. And now require workplace pensions etc. Mum pays her staff a profit-share based bonus and also pays for their education (with lock-in/payback if they leave clauses), which is unusual but guarantees retention and commitment. This all costs a lot, but guarantees stability for the children and service for the parents. Mum's profit margins are not high.
Running a nursery is incredibly stressful (an my mother does it as she loves it, loves and buys into the Montessori teaching method, and adores children. She has had her own school(s) since 1980. And every year it gets tougher with greater regulation and bureaucracy (radicalisation questionnaires for under 5s and their parents, anyone?). The new schooling age of 4 means that she seldom gets to keep and teach her pupils until 5, and this has taken much joy from the job. And now she has to work 360 odd days a year, as year-round child-care is the norm, as families with two working parents has become the norm in her area (Windsor).
Also, a pet hate of mine - if they claim to be a Montessori nursery, check they are accredited and have qualified staff. There is a big difference between a proper Montessori nursery, and a daycare centre. If you are paying a premium for the former, make sure they are delivering.
Edited by Harry Flashman on Wednesday 30th November 11:32
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