Airbus Vs Boeing. Trade wars in the new era...

[FredClogs]

The WTO yesterday resolved to declare the support Washington state was given many tens of billions of dollars of effective state aid to Boeing (numbers change depending on who you listen to). Boeing have filed counter claims about Airbus's businesses in Europe.

Given we're facing and era of Trumpian economics (protectionist, self serving anti WTO sentiment) and the possible fall or the EU as a consolidated trading block with any sort of centralised political common interest could this be the final battle cry for those holding out against hope that some kind of common interest and common sense might be applied to world trade?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/11/28/air...

[Burwood]

and what is the WTO doing about Emirates? Low fares due to billions of state aid and billions to buy Airbus jets.

[Jimbeaux]

Additionally, as soon as the Chinese have successfully copied the Airbus & Boeing designs, they will be building jets at a cut rate with massive government funding as well(some may not even crash). We all know how the Chinese will pay attention to the WTO.

[Burwood]

Jimbeaux said:

Additionally, as soon as the Chinese have successfully copied the Airbus & Boeing designs, they will be building jets at a cut rate with massive government funding as well(some may not even crash). We all know how the Chinese will pay attention to the WTO.

they already do this with all other global industries. banking, steel, farming and associated dairy products.

[Jimbeaux]

Burwood said:

Jimbeaux said:

Additionally, as soon as the Chinese have successfully copied the Airbus & Boeing designs, they will be building jets at a cut rate with massive government funding as well(some may not even crash). We all know how the Chinese will pay attention to the WTO.

they already do this with all other global industries. banking, steel, farming and associated dairy products.

Yep, something has to give.

[eccles]

Jimbeaux said:

Burwood said:

Jimbeaux said:

Additionally, as soon as the Chinese have successfully copied the Airbus & Boeing designs, they will be building jets at a cut rate with massive government funding as well(some may not even crash). We all know how the Chinese will pay attention to the WTO.

they already do this with all other global industries. banking, steel, farming and associated dairy products.

Yep, something has to give.

Yet strange how they haven't flooded the market with reverse engineered airliners picked from the many successful designs of the last 30 or 40 years....

[jamoor]

Burwood said:

and what is the WTO doing about Emirates? Low fares due to billions of state aid and billions to buy Airbus jets.

Do you or anyone have even a shred of evidence of this occuring?

Lots of people say it noone is able to prove it.

If you watch this video it highlights the incompetence of the people making those claims.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rn35xebnG7M

Edited by jamoor on Tuesday 29th November 15:59

[Equilibrium25]

jamoor said:

Burwood said:

and what is the WTO doing about Emirates? Low fares due to billions of state aid and billions to buy Airbus jets.

Do you or anyone have even a shred of evidence of this occuring?

Lots of people say it noone is able to prove it.

It is curious how the model is so very successful for them. I struggle to see how it works without state aid.

Going completely off-topic, I also struggle to see why everyone not only flies, but raves about them (in economy).

[4x4Tyke]

Burwood said:

they already do this with all other global industries. banking, steel, farming and associated dairy products.

With money borrowed from the West.

[Burwood]

Equilibrium25 said:

jamoor said:

Burwood said:

and what is the WTO doing about Emirates? Low fares due to billions of state aid and billions to buy Airbus jets.

Do you or anyone have even a shred of evidence of this occuring?

Lots of people say it noone is able to prove it.

It is curious how the model is so very successful for them. I struggle to see how it works without state aid.

Going completely off-topic, I also struggle to see why everyone not only flies, but raves about them (in economy).

The 'owners' of Emirates and the UAE government/rulers are one big happy family (technically Uncle/Nephew Owner and PM of UAE). It is a well know fact. Incidentally I fly Emirates even if it means a few hours in Dubai connecting, such is the quality of the lounge facilities. The following is since 2004.

[Burwood]

Not only do the Chinese subsidise their industry, they impose hefty tariffs on imported goods which requires most manufacturers to build in China, such as cars. Foreigners can not buy land there without a full audit and permit. Something I find repugnant. Being from NZ originally, property prices there are now higher than the UK (London actually) and have been on a tear since 2011, increasing 150%, mostly due to unchecked migration and unchecked investment in land and NZ farms, fishing and technology.

I suspect the Chinese could manufacture an Airbus equivalent. No problem at all. However it would be imposed on the large state owned airlines who fly internationally and I can't see many passengers wanting to fly on such a plane (for now). It will come though.

[Burwood]

4x4Tyke said:

Burwood said:

they already do this with all other global industries. banking, steel, farming and associated dairy products.

With money borrowed from the West.

money made from the West from exports

[FredClogs]

Burwood said:

Not only do the Chinese subsidise their industry, they impose hefty tariffs on imported goods which requires most manufacturers to build in China, such as cars. Foreigners can not buy land there without a full audit and permit. Something I find repugnant.

Isn't that what Trump promised to get him into the whitehouse?

[anonymous-user]

Burwood said:

I suspect the Chinese could manufacture an Airbus equivalent. No problem at all. However it would be imposed on the large state owned airlines who fly internationally and I can't see many passengers wanting to fly on such a plane (for now). It will come though.

Bit of a worry going by some of the quality of their products.

[Jimbeaux]

eccles said:

Jimbeaux said:

Burwood said:

Jimbeaux said:

Additionally, as soon as the Chinese have successfully copied the Airbus & Boeing designs, they will be building jets at a cut rate with massive government funding as well(some may not even crash). We all know how the Chinese will pay attention to the WTO.

they already do this with all other global industries. banking, steel, farming and associated dairy products.

Yep, something has to give.

Yet strange how they haven't flooded the market with reverse engineered airliners picked from the many successful designs of the last 30 or 40 years....

It is odd. Perhaps they are self aware of how their quality control sucks pond water. Therefore, seeing as airliners falling out of the sky on a regular basis is bad for one's business image, maybe they are going to be self-honest about QC before they venture into that sector.

[Jimbeaux]

FredClogs said:

Burwood said:

Not only do the Chinese subsidise their industry, they impose hefty tariffs on imported goods which requires most manufacturers to build in China, such as cars. Foreigners can not buy land there without a full audit and permit. Something I find repugnant.

Isn't that what Trump promised to get him into the whitehouse?

To level the playing field. There is free trade and then there is fair free trade.
An example, GM cars are sold in China. Some are built in China. Others, built over here, must be sent un-assembled so as to be assembled in China, thus adding to the cost. There needs to be a bit of "fair" put back into free trade.

Edited by Jimbeaux on Tuesday 29th November 19:56

[John145]

It'll be interesting to see what happens now that there seems a little impetus to tackle China's abuses of trade...

[jamoor]

Burwood said:

The 'owners' of Emirates and the UAE government/rulers are one big happy family (technically Uncle/Nephew Owner and PM of UAE). It is a well know fact. Incidentally I fly Emirates even if it means a few hours in Dubai connecting, such is the quality of the lounge facilities. The following is since 2004.

Well that's just a graph, without even a source.

Have a read of this

http://content.emirates.com/downloads/ek/pdfs/int_...

[jamoor]

Jimbeaux said:

It is odd. Perhaps they are self aware of how their quality control sucks pond water. Therefore, seeing as airliners falling out of the sky on a regular basis is bad for one's business image, maybe they are going to be self-honest about QC before they venture into that sector.

Well,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comac_ARJ21

[Tango13]

Jimbeaux said:

It is odd. Perhaps they are self aware of how their quality control sucks pond water. Therefore, seeing as airliners falling out of the sky on a regular basis is bad for one's business image, maybe they are going to be self-honest about QC before they venture into that sector.

Working in engineering I hear all sorts of horror stories about Chinese quality control.

I heard of one case where 50% of everything supplied was scrap, instead of improving the manufacturing proccess the Chinese supplier doubled the amount manufactured and hired twice as many inspectors to check every single part made!

Ok I suppose if you're just making nuts or bolts but not so good if you're in the airliner business...