New brakes for an "M"
Discussion
Has any one fitted a Wildwood or AP system to an M complete with vented disks? (I am not looking for the Toyota truck 4 pot caliper conversion)
1) If so do you have part numbers for a system that will fit in the standard "T" slot wheels?
2) Alternatively do you have part numbers for a system that will only fit in larger diameter after market wheels?
3) Did you keep the rear drums? (I plan to)
4) How good is the system?
5) What year and model did you fit it to?
6) Did you need a front/rear proportioning valve?
7) Do systems specified for TR6's fit M's?
8) Any major pitfalls you know of?
9) Should one also change the master cylinder?
10) Did it cost so much you are embarassed to let us know the price!
1) If so do you have part numbers for a system that will fit in the standard "T" slot wheels?
2) Alternatively do you have part numbers for a system that will only fit in larger diameter after market wheels?
3) Did you keep the rear drums? (I plan to)
4) How good is the system?
5) What year and model did you fit it to?
6) Did you need a front/rear proportioning valve?
7) Do systems specified for TR6's fit M's?
8) Any major pitfalls you know of?
9) Should one also change the master cylinder?
10) Did it cost so much you are embarassed to let us know the price!
supaspark said:I'm glad you didn't either. My Wilwood set-up was a lot less than that and I bet it's even cheaper in Canada.
Glad I didn't spend £600+ on the Wilwoods.
Any M-series car with a 'good as new' braking system will give perfectly good results on the road for normal road use. I had standard brakes on my Tuscan V8 (except for the Goodridge hoses) and it stopped quicker than many a newer TVR.
I fitted the Wilwood package to my 3000S as the brakes needed an overhaul anyway and I found that they faded badly after 3 laps of Zolder. They do not stop any better than 'normal' brakes on the road. That depends on the pads and material. Anyhow, I left the rears as standard TR6, kept the standard servo, master cylinder and brake lines etc and all seems well.
Nor sure why you ask about fitment to the standard T-slots as I know you have 15" Panaslots on your car, but I'm told they will just fit a car with the 14" wheels.
Nice one Colin ......what era did you fit the Willwoods and of course you forgot to mention that the kit from Rallye Design for the TR6 has (550 inc VAT and carriage depending what pad you choose) about 4 hours of modifications to get them to fit....Enough....back to the questions. I have 3 cars ALL my own, Taimar Turbo (292 BHP) with AP brakes, fantanstic brakes even when used on the track! Nissan touring car calipers/ sprung loaded pistons with AP material, special AP bell and special vented/cross drilled discs running with M20 material rear shoes, (bonded and riveted on to stop them from falling apart) 1500-1700 UKP fitted.
3000S Turbo (222 BHP) with my Willwood (but with the extra cost option of cross drilling) set. fantastic braking when using the RIGHT pad marterials, (the ratio of 2 pad sets to 1 disc set change applies) that do not have internal springs (which means they need a special adhesive to stop them from rattling every 2000 miles), using same M20 material rear shoes 613.00 fitted/OR 613.00 NOT fitted as the RD kit that is supposed to fit straight on, needs to be modified so much that we have to make up an upright and caliper hand to do this to, so it might as just as well be the car that they are going on rather than a spare set in the workshop.
3000S (152 BHP) STANDARD rebuilt calipers with Ferodo 2500 pads (THE NANO-SECOND pad set) that we fitted to Glyn's car with standards discs (Glyns has grooved) again with M20 material shoes (55.00 per caliper and 77.00 pad set)
THE LIMITATIONS on the 3 cars is the foot/tyre that is being put down onto the road. The Taimar has 205/55/16 SO3 tyres the others have 195/70/14 and just so that I got a fair test I put my 195/70/14's on my Taimar........the result was that I could flat spot these instantly, the AP's could and would stop the car, but with less tyre were DANGEROUS, the Willwood's are fantastic BUT they (you get the right stopping power with the right pad in MY view) create a lot of corrisive dust/metal particals that rust when they get wet and without a anti-rattle kit are high cost/mantainance BUT a MUST for a Turbo car, you can brake late and 'dig deep' into corners and and give you total confidence, Ferodo's 2500 pad is as good as you get in brake pads (given that ANY pad sold here in the UK that is NAMED to fit a car HAS TO be within 90% of the ORIGINAL spec.) THEY ARE a racing pad and has a specific bedding in procedure (which turns the basic powder/resins into the usable brake pad) it matches the Willwood in every area apart from peddle pressure (the Willwood has 283 dia. discs which give greater leverage and so less pedal pressure) and have no warm-up failings that I can percieve, also they are able have a standard anti-rattle/squeal kit fitted. I am now only fitting Ferodo 2500 as on ALL M series cars that we work on.
Adrian
>> Edited by adrian@ on Saturday 19th March 14:12
3000S Turbo (222 BHP) with my Willwood (but with the extra cost option of cross drilling) set. fantastic braking when using the RIGHT pad marterials, (the ratio of 2 pad sets to 1 disc set change applies) that do not have internal springs (which means they need a special adhesive to stop them from rattling every 2000 miles), using same M20 material rear shoes 613.00 fitted/OR 613.00 NOT fitted as the RD kit that is supposed to fit straight on, needs to be modified so much that we have to make up an upright and caliper hand to do this to, so it might as just as well be the car that they are going on rather than a spare set in the workshop.
3000S (152 BHP) STANDARD rebuilt calipers with Ferodo 2500 pads (THE NANO-SECOND pad set) that we fitted to Glyn's car with standards discs (Glyns has grooved) again with M20 material shoes (55.00 per caliper and 77.00 pad set)
THE LIMITATIONS on the 3 cars is the foot/tyre that is being put down onto the road. The Taimar has 205/55/16 SO3 tyres the others have 195/70/14 and just so that I got a fair test I put my 195/70/14's on my Taimar........the result was that I could flat spot these instantly, the AP's could and would stop the car, but with less tyre were DANGEROUS, the Willwood's are fantastic BUT they (you get the right stopping power with the right pad in MY view) create a lot of corrisive dust/metal particals that rust when they get wet and without a anti-rattle kit are high cost/mantainance BUT a MUST for a Turbo car, you can brake late and 'dig deep' into corners and and give you total confidence, Ferodo's 2500 pad is as good as you get in brake pads (given that ANY pad sold here in the UK that is NAMED to fit a car HAS TO be within 90% of the ORIGINAL spec.) THEY ARE a racing pad and has a specific bedding in procedure (which turns the basic powder/resins into the usable brake pad) it matches the Willwood in every area apart from peddle pressure (the Willwood has 283 dia. discs which give greater leverage and so less pedal pressure) and have no warm-up failings that I can percieve, also they are able have a standard anti-rattle/squeal kit fitted. I am now only fitting Ferodo 2500 as on ALL M series cars that we work on.
Adrian
>> Edited by adrian@ on Saturday 19th March 14:12
Thanks for all the replies, especially the detailed one from Adrian.
If you put something really good on the front do do you need to do anything about front/ back brake biasing? Seems almost too good to be true if the front rear proportioning doesn't need any change, although I suppose that if the front effectiveness goes up so does the weight transfer during braking and you want the back to be less effective.
If I was in the UK I would just take my car into Adrian but I am not. There is a very good brake specialist in Ottawa who is also an AP distributer but he won't ever have seen a TVR before. That is why I am trying to sort out a reasonable spec for the set up before I go and see him.
If you put something really good on the front do do you need to do anything about front/ back brake biasing? Seems almost too good to be true if the front rear proportioning doesn't need any change, although I suppose that if the front effectiveness goes up so does the weight transfer during braking and you want the back to be less effective.
If I was in the UK I would just take my car into Adrian but I am not. There is a very good brake specialist in Ottawa who is also an AP distributer but he won't ever have seen a TVR before. That is why I am trying to sort out a reasonable spec for the set up before I go and see him.
The M20 materials used on the rear are soft enough to wear and give all the rear braking that required, using the 'racing motorcyle drum method' helps this where we measure the I.D. of the drum, then set the shoes onto the back plate and machine the shoes to the correct O.D. so that there is FULL contact onto the face of the drum. We ONLY use the later master cylinder as the it has an in-built saftey vavle and can be fitted with a fluid level low warning cap.
Adrian
PS As I say the M20 pads need to be bonded AND riveted and this reflected in the work-load that they are then transfering to the drum in heat.
>> Edited by adrian@ on Tuesday 22 March 07:54
Adrian
PS As I say the M20 pads need to be bonded AND riveted and this reflected in the work-load that they are then transfering to the drum in heat.
>> Edited by adrian@ on Tuesday 22 March 07:54
colin said :
"I fitted the Wilwood package to my 3000S as the brakes needed an overhaul anyway and I found that they faded badly after 3 laps of Zolder. "
Who needs brakes at Zolder anyway? some never brake.
Taking the S or some secret weapon this year? I'm not sure if I'll make it.
If John Wade gets to my essex it will be thirsty night. Maybe your injection lump is the way to go.
jos
"I fitted the Wilwood package to my 3000S as the brakes needed an overhaul anyway and I found that they faded badly after 3 laps of Zolder. "
Who needs brakes at Zolder anyway? some never brake.
Taking the S or some secret weapon this year? I'm not sure if I'll make it.
If John Wade gets to my essex it will be thirsty night. Maybe your injection lump is the way to go.
jos
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